Natalie Oliverio | Veteran Mentor and Partner

On this episode of Return to Base, we welcome Natalie Oliverio. Natalie is a veteran of the United States Navy and the founder of Military Talent Partners, a company that cultivates military talent through mentorship and career discovery. 

After working as a corporate recruiter for over a decade, Natalie recognized that a gap existed between what the military was able to prepare service-members for, and what they needed in order to be successful post-military. Natalie made it her mission to build and nurture mentorships while sourcing great opportunities for veterans and their spouses.

 Natalie welcomes you to follow Military Talent Partners on LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at the links below and her personal LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/natalieoliverio/.

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Military-Talent-Partners-145763452962363/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/MilTalent
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/military.talent.partners/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/military-talent-partners/

This episode was made possible in part by the good AMERICANS at Black Rifle Coffee Company.

Transcript

Cliff  00:00

Hey, everybody. Thank you for tuning in to this installment of Return To Base. I am your host, Cliff. 

Today's guest is somebody who-- If you are a veteran, if you are thinking about becoming a veteran, if you are a spouse of a veteran, you just absolutely need to follow her on LinkedIn, on Facebook, on Instagram, on wherever she's putting stuff out. She hasn't read it. I don't know about it but you need to go look it up. She's a tremendous resource when it comes to information for transitioning out of the military. She's a fantastic mentor. She's willing to talk to anybody and really go to bat and advocate for veterans. 

Been a veteran herself, she's been there, she's done that. She knows what drives people to serve. She also knows what drives companies to hire veterans. She's also the founder and CEO of Military Talent Partners which is a company. It's a recruitment firm and that sells it a little bit short. She does so much more than that. 

Without further ado, thank you for coming to this podcast. Thank you for listening. Hit subscribe if you get a chance on whatever podcast service you're listening to us on and stay tuned for Natalie.

[Inaudible 00:01:18] This is Victor Lima RTB. This is Return To Base, a veteran life podcast. 

We are here with Natalie Oliverio from Military Talent Partners. She's a Navy vet. We won't hold that against her but thank you for joining us. 

Natalie Oliverio  01:53

Hi, Cliff. Thanks so much for having me.

Cliff  01:55

It is a privilege to have you because ever since that I started transitioning and paying attention to LinkedIn and things like that, your name has been synonymous. You're almost a little conscience that's sitting on my shoulder. A little devil or angel, whichever one that is sitting on my shoulder and giving me a nice transition tip since I've been out. I appreciate that.

Natalie  02:23

Oh, you're so welcome. I would admit that I am most likely to be voted. I want to say 50-50 devil angel but I feel like I might be 60-40 devil, but [Inaudible 00:02:35] I just want you to do what's best for you. Sometimes that means burning bridges and screwing everybody else figuratively but it's all about what's best for you. I'm happy to do it.

Cliff  02:48

Yes. Well, your advice, your wisdom that you put out on social media on LinkedIn and stuff is obviously very needed but it goes much further than that for you. Obviously, you're associated with some other groups that I'm also associated with, like Elite Meet and we'll get to all that. 

Let's just slow down a little bit and let's talk about your life, Natalie. We want to know about you and what brought you to where you are right now. How's that sound? 

Natalie  03:23

That sounds great. 

Cliff  03:25

Cool. Again, you were in the Navy. What brought you to do that? No you're in West Virginia, right?

Natalie  03:34

I'm in West Virginia. I'm from West Virginia, born and raised. 

Cliff  03:38

Right, and I know they have a pretty good Navy there.

Natalie  03:43

No Navy here.

Cliff  03:44

No Navy. 

Natalie  03:45

The other Virginia has-- In Norfolk, they have the Navy base in the world but I didn't have an ambition to go into the military but I did have the ambition to go to college but that ambition turned into just having a whole lot of fun instead. 

Long story short, it just wasn't the right move for me and it was my first taste of a failure. 

Cliff  04:16

Oh.

Natalie  04:20

Yes. I withdrew. I wasn't going to class. I went to WVU. I was having a really good time [Crosstalk 00:04:25]. Yes, it wasn't really for me because I just wasn't doing very well and I needed to redesign what my future plan was and my parents were all over me and I was the oldest in my family as far as the children and I had to do something big enough to shut everybody up and something that would really challenge me because I was-- I got bored so easily and everything I had planned on my entire high school career just went down the tubes really fast.

And I had a younger brother who the recruiters just kept calling and one of them got me-- Totally got me on the phone. He's like, "What are you doing?" I'm like, "Nothing." "Well what were you in college for?" I'm like, "Journalism." He said, "You could be a journalist in the Navy." And I'm like, "Really? Wait, so I could travel the world?" They made it sound like a five-star resort first time. Sure you know how the rest of it went. 

I go into the Navy. Big goals, big dreams. All these things. Didn't get right in as a journalist. Ended up being a dental tech. Then became undesignated and moved on to all other stuff but then, eight months in, it was 9 11.

Cliff  05:46

Oh.

Natalie  05:46

And everything changed like it did for everybody who was around on 9 11 and everything changed. It was scary, it was different and it just completely redesigned my future from that point on [Crosstalk 00:06:00].

I was actually like it was September 10th, 2001, was my first day underway off the coast of the Atlantic of Virginia. We were doing workups for deployment.

Cliff  06:09

Wow.

Natalie  06:10

And on the morning of 9 11, we raced up to Yorktown to onboard Tomahawk missiles as I was on a guided missile destroyer and then we went right up off the coast of New York just to stand and watch.

Cliff  06:22

Oh.

Natalie  06:23

Because no one knew what was going to happen later that day or the next day and I remember we were in-- We had duty-- You have to see a 24-hour watch duty every-- It was like once every seven-- It was like 10-- We had a 10 day duty section which meant every-- Once every 10 days you were on duty for 24 hours and we went down to three days. That's how much they upped the number of watches in the security points and it just completely changed for the entire world. Definitely the entire country and everyone's serving in the military and it really shaped the rest of my service.

And I ended up meeting my husband while I was serving. Otherwise, I probably would have stayed in longer but all I wanted to do was correct my previous failure of leaving college with a two beers in my hand instead of degree. I did that and then I got married and then I began a career in HR because it was people and helping people tell their story or helping connect people to something bigger than themselves that really excited me. 

The thing is when I got out of the Navy and I thought I knew what I was doing, I actually didn't. It was so weird.

Cliff  07:43

What year was that?

Natalie  07:44

It was 2005 and I was going back to West Virginia. When you're transitioning from the military and you go back to your hometown or your home state, you get this sense of a little bit of ego, a little bit of comfort, and that you got this. You've been here before, you've done these things like it'd be fun.

Cliff  08:05

Right. You're a world traveler unlike all these hits in West Virginia.

Natalie  08:09

Yes. No one's going to work with you except for going through something so dynamic as a military service and living in a military lifestyle for however many years. It changes you.

Cliff  08:23

Right.

Natalie  08:23

You're different. You're not the same person you were before on purpose. It purposely changed you, right? And everybody else around you has changed too and the way they act around you is different, the way they talk to you is different, the way you're thought about is different, and for me, when I looked to my peers and my friends and family, they had all kept going with their lives. It was like I was in a time capsule away in the military and they had just kept going over their lives. My friends had professional jobs. They already had their degrees. My family had no clue. 

I can't even tell you. In a small town, people said, "Oh you are back now?" "Yes. I've been back for a minute. A long time." "Oh weren't you in the military? Are you back now?" People just don't get it. 

Cliff  09:07

Right.

Natalie  09:07

But that-- They don't get it. Spread is so much bigger in your transition and it makes you feel like you don't belong. It makes you feel out of place and you have no idea what your next mission is or your next purpose or how the hell you're going to get there. 

That never and it still today has not left me. I will never forget the way that felt. I think for anyone that you talk to that's gone through it. Even anyone who's been displaced in their career, maybe they were fired or laid off or rift or whatever the case and they're out of work and you don't have a place to go in the morning when you wake up. That same feeling of like you don't have a place to belong. You don't know what your purpose is. You don't know what your plan is. For a lot of veterans, especially high performing veterans that can feel unraveling.

Cliff  10:01

Yes, that's interesting. You say that, I spoke with Dr. Bessel Van Der Kolk a while back and he mentioned that was one of the causes, if you will, of unresolved trauma is this loss of identity. Right? And it certainly isn't what caused the trauma but it doesn't help when you also lose your identity. You go back to West Virginia, you thought you were going to be this same old Natalie but with world traveled, with a degree of optimism and confidence and it turned out that nobody knew who you were now. Right?

Natalie  10:56

Exactly. It was like I've never had been here before and I was so uncomfortable in my own skin. 

Cliff  11:03

Wow. 

Natalie  11:03

Walking around the place that I should have owned. Right?

Cliff  11:08

Did you think about moving anywhere else?

Natalie  11:11

I didn't because my whole family was there. My husband's whole family was there and it's like-- When I was living in Hampton Roads, Virginia, I remember thinking to myself, "You know what? Most places are the same to some degree. What really makes the difference, what really matters is who you're with." And for a long time, I felt that way and I still do now. Though, I think being a business owner and traveling so much, I'm more open to different experiences until living elsewhere but because I felt so out of place, I couldn't even think that far. 

Cliff  11:47

Right.

Natalie  11:48

As like moving somewhere else because I knew moving to a new place, I'd feel just the same. Like a stranger, like somebody who's never been here before and it stung a little bit more because it was my home but those feelings had to be resolved or they would follow me forever and years later, I was in a role that was eliminated due to a company crisis and my entire team was broken up and let go and that was the job I thought it would be at forever and I felt exactly like I did years before post Navy. Well, lost.

I didn't know where I belonged. I didn't know what I purpose was and outside of that, I had a very good life. Loving spouse and raising little baby, great friends, support system, it didn't matter because I didn't know what I was doing the next day or the day after that day, next week, next month. 

I got to a really dark place just like post transition and it was very hard to get out of but once I did, I bounced back really hard and I remembered that what brought me out of this transition rabbit hole was sitting down with myself and just figuring out what the hell I wanted to do because no matter how badly I wanted someone to give me the answers or help me out of it. Nobody could do that for me. I had to do it for myself and until I was ready to put in that work and have that difficult conversation for and with myself. There was no getting out of it and it was the same way years later when I was unemployed and uninspired and unengaged with anything.

Cliff  13:37

Getting out of the military, going back to West Virginia, did you pop right back into school? Use your GI Bill? Is that the plan? Is that what happened? And how was it different? How did you grow in that time you were away? And I mean, did you ever get your degree or did you drop out again?

Natalie  13:45

No, I got my degree. I did get my degree. I drink a lot less it was after time in the Navy drinking. Just didn't have the same allure to it. 

Cliff  13:55

Right.

Natalie  13:56

Sure that you can understand. Versus being 18. All I remember my first beer. No, me too. I was 18 and I was in college. I wasn't legal yet and so on and so forth but man, I missed that GI Bill money. That was so great. That was amazing. 

Anybody who doesn't take advantage of the GI Bill needs to seriously rethink that or gift it to someone who can use it in your family because it's free money. It was like free money in my checking account every month and I had so much left over after tuition. It was like continuing to be paid to learn and I'm like, "This is amazing. This is really cool."

Cliff  14:35

[Crosstalk 00:14:35] Nobody else is doing this. 

Natalie  14:36

Really? This is dope and there are definitely really dark days on active duty and I was like, "Why didn't I just go to class? This is not for me. I can't do this. What am-- I what was I thinking? I should have just stayed in class. Just gone to class, shouldn't drink so much beer, would have been so much better." 

But how the Navy changed me is, it grew to me in ways that I didn't know or anyone who knew me would know was possible and I am the woman I am today because of those experiences. I don't know that I could have been challenged as brutally or authentically as I was in the Navy and in the time that I served post 9 11. I don't think that there's any parallel experience that could have given me the balls that I have now and the self-awareness, the survivability that I have and I know that no matter what, I'm resilient enough to figure it out and to make it happen with little to nothing in my corner and I've done it. I've done it several times. 

And I wasn't raised that way. I was raised in a traditional gender, female gender role. I was raised to grow up and get married. I wasn't taught about business or economics or money or things that typical males were raised with back in the 90s or as the young people call today, they call it the late 1900s. 

Cliff  16:18

Do they say that? 

Natalie  16:20

They do which I'm not condoning but [Crosstalk 00:16:23]. Everything I did, was doing, and wanted to do was always pushing the norm, always pushing what other people said I could or couldn't do. If you say I can't do something, there's nothing to stop me from going just all out to do it. Just because you're wrong, whatever it is, I'll do it and I'll probably do it better than you.

Cliff  16:46

Right. You had an experience in the Navy. I've sure where-- I mean, I'm not going to say everybody, but most of us wrestle sometimes in basic training or whatever, with a little bit of self-loathing, a little bit of that doubt monster creeps saying you, "I don't know if I could do this." But then you do.

Natalie  17:09

The first few weeks, I felt like that. I would be so scared of everything that was to come the next day and then the next day would come and I would crush it and it'd be just scared for the next day and the next day would come in and crush it too. It took me solid two weeks before that fear backed up a little bit but it's like every week that you get through in boot camp, you feel like, "Oh God. That was the hardest week. The hardest weeks definitely coming next week. I don't know I can do it." \

And you hear everybody else having those fears too and it just feeds that fear monster. 

Cliff  17:39

Yes. 

Natalie  17:40

But then when you get through it and you get through the various trainings and exercises and things you do throughout your career. You realize, "OK."

Cliff  17:48

I got this. 

Natalie  17:50

Yes, totally.

Cliff  17:51

Now, were your classmates enamored by you? Like, "Oh, look." There's-- I mean, this is right-- Just a few years after 9 11. Right? Things had been a little bit different as for 10 years later because you're coming out of the military. Iraq invasion just happened. We'd been in Afghanistan for a time period, people were still pretty proud but I mean, you're from West Virginia, West by God Virginia, where there's a good amount of patriotism there. Where people like, "Wow. Natalie's a veteran. Let's ask Natalie what she thinks about this." Or was it a mixture of that and the opposite?

Natalie  18:40

I feel like it was more of the opposite. So much as every time I set foot inside the VA, people be like, "Are you here with your husband?"

Cliff  18:50

Oh, Yes. I didn’t think from that angle.

Natalie  18:53

Right. I was at target one time checking out. Sorry, target. I love you but I'm telling this story. I had a military ID in my wallet and you couldn't see anything except for the top of it and the person ringing me up, saw it. I was getting ready to get my credit card out the pay and they're like, "Oh, tell your husband thank you for a service." And I mean, I'm not that sensitive about it. I feel like men and women are equal veterans. I don't think anyone is better than anybody else and-- But it definitely is a thing that when people outside of the military or with very little or limited exposure to the military community and the diversity that lives within it. 

When you hear the word veteran, you typically think of a man and that was very much West Virginia. They were behind the curve for sure. Even though this was right around the Jessica Lynch era too. You know what I mean? [Crosstalk 00:19:53] 

Right. Exactly. It was just like a novelty almost because it was so not the norm. It really was just another layer of why people were uncomfortable talking to me or how to approach me or what to say to me or what not to say to me and it just made me more of an outsider than anything else. 

Cliff  20:15

Interesting.

Natalie  20:16

And WVU, at the time didn't even have a veterans organization and I was one of the first people to help start that up at WVU and there was no enclave or support system for veterans and I'm like, "This is a major university. What is happening?" But a lot has happened since then, thankfully but people don't realize how diverse the military is. There are over 3000 jobs in our military. It runs its own massive global organization because it is. 

Cliff  20:46

[Inaudible 00:20:46].

Natalie  20:47

People from all backgrounds. People say about special operators, "Oh, they're all white males." Yes, there are a lot fewer minority males and even fewer females but you can't say that all Special Forces are just white males with great hair, if you're a seal.

Cliff  21:04

Hey, wait a minute. [Inaudible 00:21:05]. 

Natalie  21:07

But there's just so many stereotypes that live within and outside of the military. That there's such a barrier to real understanding that creates multiple streams of bias, both conscious and unconscious bias and the more that people share their story, the more education and awareness we can help spread.

Cliff  21:29

Yes. That's a good Segway into what you do now, right? But I want to get the connective tissue between coming out of college, having that job, getting laid off. At what point did you start realizing that there was a delta in the military talents out in the workforce? At what point did you see that there needed to be something to fix those deficits?

Natalie  22:03

When I was working as an executive recruiter, it was really frustrating that I couldn't just tell people, people in general, veterans or otherwise, what they could do differently so that they were-- They wouldn't continue to be rejected for the jobs they were going after or if they performed poorly in an interview and it cost them the opportunity. 

I wish just so badly that I could say, "Do this next time or answer this question like this." Because it allows you to really play on your strengths and it's not as confusing to understand, right? But you can't say that when you work for a big company or any company because all you can say is, "We're considering other candidates." Or, "Thank you, we'll consider you again in the future.” Some bullshit canned response that's legal for all the HR reasons.

Cliff  22:47

Right. 

Natalie  22:49

I volunteered as a mentor and I fell in love with it. It wasn't attached to the company, it was my private, my volunteer effort and I could say anything. I could use all the knowledge that I had from HR and talent acquisition and I could help drive people to their goals for their career and it was lighting me up inside like the Fourth of July. Every call was so good and I couldn't get enough of giving this to people. 

Cliff  23:19

Right.

Natalie  23:20

"Oh, that's so gracious of you to give your time and you're such a great volunteer." But truthfully, this gave me so much joy, so much satisfaction, it was the missing link to happiness for me professionally and personally, I took so much joy in it and in these conversations, I realized like there's such a link between mentorship and recruiting and I wish that when I left the military, I had something like this. I wish that I knew this existed or had even thought to get a mentor and I really fell in love with it.

Cliff  23:55

Could you go through to the mentoring opportunity?

Natalie  24:00

My very first was with Veterati and the Travis Manion Foundation through their "Character doesn't matter" program how I got involved with TMF but then also Veterati which is like virtual on demand mentorship in your pockets. Pretty fantastic. 

In Tandem at my corporate job, I was tasked with creating this huge veteran initiative company wide. It was amazing. I was so lit up. I'm so excited and long story short, I got killed the last Saturday. 

Cliff  24:30

Oh, no.

Natalie  24:31

Because even though I poured my heart and soul into this, I held focus groups and created a budget that was mainly sweat equity and it just got killed. I got pulled overnight like it just didn't freakin’ matter and it was devastating and that actually happened again at my next job and the company was owned outside of the US and they just didn't care enough. 

Cliff  24:53

Yes

Natalie  24:53

To really put through the effort. Knowing how I felt about mentorship, knowing the gap that exists stayed in military talent, and that talent marketplace around veterans and military spouses. It just really pissed me off to the point of feeling so unsettled and knowing in my gut that I could do more about it than what people were doing then and I was scared. 

Natalie  25:17

I was not this like badass bee-- Fresh off the boat, ready to just jump into entrepreneurship. I never thought I could do it. I'm like, "I don't know anything about business. Who'll want to work with me?" And I mean, I'm great at what I do and I definitely care the most but I don't have a ton of money and I didn't have an MBA and I just-- I was in the right place at the right time and I took the opportunity and I got my first client and I just jumped off the cliff.

Cliff  25:17

Yes.

Natalie  25:42

Even though everyone-- Everybody was like, "Don't do it. Go get another job and just do it slow. Just walk through it and take your time." I'm like, "Nope, I'm just doing it."

Cliff  25:51

You're saying you were-- Was this in between being laid off and your next opportunity? This is when you decided?

Natalie  26:03

Oh, no. I did take another corporate opportunity after that. After I'd gotten out of that, unemployment, depression, being dark and feeling like I didn't belong anywhere. I did take another corporate role and I was head of commercial talent for an aerospace company in North America and it was great except for-- Sorry to put anybody on blast but I could have slept through my job seven and a half of the eight hours and still crushed it. It was just going through the motion. Ridiculous, and if that-- If all I cared about was a paycheck, I could have just kicked my feet up all day and collected it every two weeks but it was killing me inside because all I was doing with my time-- My free time was investing my energy in transitioning military veterans and veterans and their families and lining them up about their own potential and recognizing what they can make happen and here I was just squandering opportunity of my potential because I was losing maybe 20% of it and I was like, "This is bullshit. This is not what I'm talking about. I'm not living it when I'm talking about to other people and I'm not living it because I'm afraid to go and grab it by the balls and take it for myself because I didn't think I was good enough." And--

Cliff  27:23

It's scary.

Natalie  27:24

It was scary. It's scary when you're used to getting a salaried paycheck and then all of a sudden, you're going to go carve out your own and earn every dollar for yourself and if it was not for my mentor, who was a badass Army veteran. If it weren't for him, I probably would never have taken that. I would have never but I wouldn't have taken it right then and if I didn't have his wings to borrow, I don't know that I could have taken that flight.

Cliff  27:48

That's interesting. Something that you just said struck me as super important is backing up. You are a mentor and I think it's important to note that you had a mentor as well.

Natalie  28:05

Absolutely. Mentorship is a two way street for sure. 

Cliff  28:08

Yes. I know that there's a lot of organizations out there who still provide mentorship or mentorship connection for military veterans, transition military. Encourage everybody to, obviously, look into that. If you haven't done it, you're missing out. 

I had a mentor from JJ as I was transitioning and yes, it was definitely beneficial. You're one foot in corporate, one foot in entrepreneurship? Or has it happened or just jump right into the entrepreneurship and say, "See you later corporate."?

Natalie  28:52

Even just thinking about it, it's making me sweat a little bit. I'm not going to lie because I was so afraid and I got invited to speak at this event in New York City and the event had put up this poster. I didn't have a headshot. I'd literally cropped my face from a family Christmas photo for them to use which is so embarrassing when I look back but also timeout my mentor taught me that if you don't look back a year ago and cringe on what you-- About what you did, then you're not growing enough.

I've grown so much because I cringe every day. Just nonstop growth and Natalie in the Beanstalk but I got to this event. I was like, "Oh my gosh, my company is going to-- My boss is going to see this on LinkedIn. They're going to know. It says, Natalie Oliverio Military Talent Partners of my face." And they liked it. They even shared it. They didn't get what it was. 

And I'm like, "Oh my gosh." Through this event and the people there, I got introduced to a company that was looking to hire veterans and it was the first opportunity that I ever had to pitch someone about my business and about the importance of hiring veterans and I just went with it and have a pitch created. I hadn't practiced. I just went with it all heart and all guts and they hired me. They gave me 10 jobs to fill. Just me, party of one MTP and I'm like, "Oh my god. I have to quit my job. This is a conflict of interest. Oh my god, I'm doing this." And it was unlike being unemployed. 

My husband was so supportive and he's like, "You'll be fine. You're amazing. You'll get another job." I'm like, "Yes, you're right. It will be fine no matter what." This time he was like, "Are you sure you want to quit this job? Are you sure that you want to go and make your own? Are you sure?" I'm like, "Listen, I got three months’ worth of cash flow. I can do this for three months and be OK. If I can't get this off the ground in three months, I will just go get another job." Which sounds really cool now but I have chills and I'm sweating while I'm telling you this because I lived it and it was terrifying and thank God in three months, 90 days later, I had nine more clients. 

Cliff  31:00

Oh.

Natalie  31:01

They were hiring veterans left and right and I was still mentoring and I was pairing the magic of mentorship with recruiting and that's exactly what I always wanted to do. I just didn't know that I could. I didn't know that all this time of wasted potential, I was in the wrong place at the right time until I wasn't and once I felt that spark of right place, right time, I just fucking took it. 

Cliff  31:25

Yes. Now, I think it's important to pause here to explain a little bit about the business model behind what we're talking about and we're talking about not just-- Well, it's recruiting, right? And somebody come out of the military, they've either been told don't go with a recruiter, you don't have to do that or they've been told go find a recruiter but a lot of people don't understand. OK, well, how much is your career going to charge me? Or is a recruiter going to take a portion of my salary? Or what's in it for them? Right? If you don't mind, can you just lay bare what the business model of recruiting in this space looks like?

Natalie  32:14

Yes, it's pretty asked up to be honest. There's a lot of bad actors out there. My personal belief is that as a candidate which means a veteran, a transitioning service member, a military spouse, you should not be paying to get a job. I'm also not a proponent of resume-- Of professional resume writers unless you're going to lockstep shoulder to shoulder write it with them, you're cheating yourself on learning your own story and being able to tell it which that execution is far more important getting a job than that piece of paper, but don't get me spun up because I will go all day on it. 

As far as bad actors are, there are specific firms that just only go after capturing junior military officers because you've got college educated individuals who also have some military experience that makes them like a golden goose.

Cliff  33:06

And willing to work 120 hours a week.

Natalie  33:09

Right. Exactly, like much less than you deserve because they just want to fit your square peg into some round hole to check it off their box and make sure that they can get more placements which is tied to the money that they make and that money, that placement method is pretty standard. 

However, money out of pocket from a candidate is unethical in my opinion, unless you want to hire a headhunter which is different than a recruiter. A headhunter is like an agent, a sports agent, right? That's hired to represent you, that could then go and farm you out to all these companies and introduce you and get this potential and they're expensive, right? Unless you're some baller, I don't know that you're going to hire a headhunter. That's-- But recruiting is different. 

There are a lot of big name, top tier. I don't say top tier but they're very big name, popular named firms, and recruiting firms that less and less have the best interest of veterans at heart and Military Talent Partners was created as the antithesis to that and what we do for candidates, for veterans, transitioning service members, military spouses, entirely free. We take zero money, $0 from them ever. 

Natalie  34:17

In fact, 50% of the revenue we do create through our business connections, like business to business, we dedicate to keeping all of our services free, always. That's number one. 

Natalie  34:29

Number two, we partner with companies all across the country to help them hire veterans and spouses. We do that through direct full lifecycle recruitment. We also offer strategic consulting services and diversity and inclusion strategy, workforce planning, and talent development. There's a lot of things we do to partner with companies. That's totally different than what we do on our service side with our candidates, our veterans, our service members, our spouses. 

Because we believe so heavily impairing mentorship and recruiting together, it only makes sense that our business has those two sides that go hand in hand. It's a constant fight to change that narrative to someone who's had a bad experience with another recruiting firm and the same on the company side. 

These companies that work with third party agencies often get a raw deal and they just don't want to consider the options for diverse talent because they just want to find the same talent they've always hired to do the same thing they've always done. It's easier. 

Encouraging companies and having this conversation is not the easiest road but it's the most important and in the long term, it's going to pay off time and time again for them. Winning over people in that way, as far as companies to work with is a challenge but it's worth it. It's worth the fight every day because we've 10s of 1000s of veterans and service members and spouses in our immediate network who've done the work, who've been mentored, who understand their why and their purpose and what they want and their interview prep is done and their resume is perfect, and they're just ready but there's not 10s of 1000s of employers and meaningful opportunities that are ready for these individuals. It's a constant effort that is not for the weak at heart.

Cliff  36:14

Yes. You said the businesses of recruiting itself, it's a hustle, right? There's time limits. Of course, if somebody wants to hire somebody, they want to hire him soon, right? They want excellent number of candidates and if a candidate or a veteran or a candidate isn't hired, then they're going to revenue for the company. It's self-supportive model where, yes, veterans get a job. The business that the recruiter has contracted with pays a fee to the recruiting firm, is essentially how it works. Is that right normally?

Natalie  37:03

The company does.

Cliff  37:04

Right. Yes.

Natalie  37:06

The standard is that the company will pay a fee, either a retainer up front or commission on the back end, based on what that new hire is hired in at and those percentages wildly vary across the board. It depends what it shouldn't and typically doesn't do from a company perspective is affect how much that candidate makes. 

Let's say the job pays 50K and that recruiter is going to get 20%. If they hire somebody at 50k, that doesn't mean that that candidate could have gotten 60k. They still would have gotten 50k because that budget comes from-- Typically comes from something else depending on the company breakdown and dynamic and financial situation but also, that doesn't mean that there's not a wiggle room for that candidate to negotiate on their offer.

The two-- The offer that that candidate will accept and the fee paid to the recruiting and the consultants, two different things. It's not a negative thing but if it ever gets to-- "OK, if we get you hired, you're going to have to pay us this or you're going to owe us 5%, 10%, 20, 30, whatever." {Crosstalk 00:38:17].

Cliff  38:17

But not with MTP?

Natalie  38:19

Absolutely not. We do not ever charge any candidate for any reason, no veteran, no service member, no male spouse. Even if you're a civilian candidate, which we don't typically hire, we wouldn't charge them because that's on our model. The companies that pay for our services, those are the companies that are on our for-profit side. Our for-profit for a purpose company has a purpose side is the mentorship and the services and the career coaching that we offer and is always free.

Cliff  38:47

Yes. Well, I'm glad that recruiters and companies like yourself do exist because they are a very integral part of transitioning. Segway into transitioning, right? 

I want to take-- You to take me through a little bit of a process. I'm Bill or Bob or whatever and I'm a year out from transitioning. When should somebody contact somebody like yourself to line up mentorship? And you'd mentioned to me in a previous conversation that you look at it as a holistic approach to an ideal transition. Explain what that means and the path that one should take.

Natalie  39:42

There's a lot of different opinions out there. There's checklists, there's timelines, but the timeline really depends on you. It's never too early. For 5, 10, 20 years out, before you even get in the military. If you want to have an after action plan. That's OK too. 

As soon as the inclination comes to you, as soon as you have the idea about thinking what's next for you, that's the right time to start having the conversation because there's so many different conversations and layers of them to have with your spouse, with your family. Where do you want to live? What do you want to do with our life be like post military, when we've regained the freedom to make those choices versus the government?

By the way, this is what I've done for X number of years in the military. What do I want to do next? I have no idea. Maybe let's get a mentor. It's never too early to have a mentorship conversation or a discovery conversation with yourself or someone you trust. It's never too early. As soon as you have the idea, it's the right time.

Cliff  40:43

That's a good point. I think my mentor ship started 18 months out, it's fine. I'm correct but this holistic approach to transitioning. Does this include getting all your ducks in a row? Is it? You have to get your resume out there, you have to fix your LinkedIn profile? That's what you want to do? You have to plan how to network, when to network, whom to network with? How important are those things while somebody is transitioning?

Natalie  41:20

They're not immediately important because everybody raises to get this resume template created or their LinkedIn created and populated but you don't have a clue of what you're even saying. 

Cliff  41:34

Right.

Natalie  41:34

You have to decide who you're going to be next. Who's-- What's the future Natalie? What's the future Cliff like? What are you want to do next? Because your resume, your personal brand, your story, the way you interview, the way you talk about yourself, and what you want is not about who you've been and what you've already done. It's about what you will do and who you'll become next. That is so much more important. 

And unfortunately, the adult attention span six seconds. You have to be so sure, so confident, competent, and clear about who you are, what you want to do, and why you want to do it. Answering those three questions, whether it's through mentorship, self-discovery, internet research, doesn't matter-- Practicing on your iPhone, video camera, whatever. It does not matter but you have to be able to answer those three questions. Otherwise, what the hell are you going to write in your resume? 

Cliff  42:30

That's right.

Natalie  42:30

How are you going to answer interview questions? Why do you want to transition?

Cliff  42:33

Share it with us again. What is it? What are the three questions?

Natalie  42:37

Oh. You have to know who you are. 

Cliff  42:39

Who you are?

Natalie  42:40

What you want to do?

Cliff  42:42

What you want to do?

Natalie  42:43

And why you want to do it? 

Then when you get into the conversation with someone, you can describe how you'll do it. Right? Really, it's for who are you? What do you do? Why do you do it and how? But the first three is the fundamental bottom baseline. I mean, the foundation to everything else. I just had a mentorship call before this with you and I and someone 17 years, multiple deployments had done, had lived out their career and ready to retire and just had no clue what was next. 

And they're like, "Well, we can get into contracting and I have a clearance and I can do all these things and-- But I don't really know what I want to do." That’s what most people think, right? What can I do? What's available? I can do anything. I just want to get a job until it's six, 9, 12 months later, and you're miserable and it's sucking your soul and you're making money but you're unhappy and now you're taking that home with you and now you're thinking about all the things you could be doing and it's just not even close to the quality of life that you deserve and can have. 

Someone doesn't hire you because your resume is perfection or you interviewed. You're such a slick interviewer. It's what you said and how you make them feel that makes them feel hired. You're hired. You're amazing, right? That's the thing you got to learn, right? And the importance of your question, when do I need to have this and this? Not off the job because if you haven't done the work, it's going to be such a long, painful process to get where you want to go.

By going through this process to understand who you are? What you do or what you want to do? And why? Now you've got the foundation. Now you can have that discussion via your resume, pulling out pieces that are relevant from your experience to tell the future story of what you're going to do next. That summary, that-- The words on your resume, keywords, whatever someone has told you is important to put in there. They're all fine and well. 

The way someone feels when they read it decides whether they call you for an interview, they want to know more. Just like on your LinkedIn, the way someone feels when they view your profile, decide that they hit connect or send you a message or reach out in some way. It's all about the story that you tell holistically about you. Who? What? Why? And how that is making relevant people feel. People that are relevant to you, how they feel about you?

Cliff  45:18

Yes, and I've seen it with several veterans. I could say, I've seen it with myself as well where when I got out of the military, I didn't really know what I wanted. I didn't know-- I didn't even know what type of jobs there-- Were out there to be quite honest and I did a fair amount to prepare myself but I ended up having those same questions like, "What am I going to do?" If I would go to networking events, and they'd say, "Hey, what? What do you want to do?" And I couldn't ask answer question. 

When I first got out the military and it was scary and then life happens along the way and I was lucky enough to find a really good opportunity where it worked out but I think I was lucky. To be honest with you. I think I got a little bit lucky through networking and lucky me, but I wouldn't recommend it to anybody else. That's for sure. It was a fair amount of stress. 

What do you what do you say to somebody who does say, "Natalie, I don't even know what's out there. I know where I want to live. I don't know what the landscape out there looks like for somebody like me." 

Natalie  46:41

Yes. First of all, you have to understand what somebody like you means. What do you want to do? And in comparison with the location that you want to live in or that you are in a simple Google search or multiple searches will answer those questions for you. Then you can see what the landscape looks like. The career landscape and then you know what you're after. Then you can start drawing some intersections. Here's what I think I want to do. Here's what I'm qualified and eligible to do. This is where my education fits in and this is what I've always done or what my experience is like. You have those multiple circles, and you find in the middle, where they intersect. That's your focus, right?

And now you're more specifically looking for things and those Google searches in that career landscape and you're going to find multiple job descriptions, different varying titles that you're going to find things that start to hit for you. That tie together a story, a narrative of experience, or skill or qualifications, and you realize, that's what I'm looking for. 

That's one way, right? Or you start formulating more intelligent questions to ask a mentor or multiple mentors. You can get great feedback, then you start networking and getting in there to figure it all out because only you can figure it out. People can tell you all day what's right for you but you're the only one that really knows.

Cliff  48:01

Yes, that's a good point. I may ask you another question from the other perspective, I found in a previous opportunity that some companies-- A lot of companies aren't very good at writing JDs anyways and then they're horrible at writing JDs that will translate to somebody exiting the military. They say, "I want to hire people who are veterans. I want to hire veterans." But they don't know how to write job descriptions that a veteran might be able to understand. Have you seen that?

Natalie  48:41

All the time. There's such a disconnect between desire qualifications and talent that's relevant in veteran or otherwise. Yes, there's a disconnect, which is all the more creates the emphasis for us to be able to drive that conversation and draw the lines between what qualifies us versus what doesn't or what's confusing. The less confusing we are, the more convinced they become.

Cliff  49:09

Interesting. Transitioning just a little bit here to 2020. I want to ask a little bit about-- Obviously, you have a, you have a business that relies on, on the world being in a status quo in some sense, right? And that had been tremendously stressful to be in a business like that where all of a sudden you're having to deal with that. Right? How did you get through it?

Natalie  49:51

Which part? 

Cliff  49:52

The part of the pandemic and just in your business model.

Natalie  49:57

It was really hard and I was coming off of a sudden death of a parent and a pandemic and fighting depression and it was a perfect storm of just nightmare, really. It was a hard time for everybody and I felt like the whole world was mourning with me, it was terrible but if--I feel like I got to the point of hearing about how important it is to pivot so much that I like one of the choke the next person who said pivot but when it did do more productive answer for you is that forced me to rethink everything, what's the most important, what's the best value I can bring to people right now? Because not everybody's hiring. People are losing their hiring. People are confused. They don't know how much money they're going to have. They're laying people off.

What is the most value and that really blossomed our strategic consulting arm of the business and we really leaned into it and what that did was breed more opportunity for hiring post pandemic. I don't know the word really post pandemic but as hiring and work. People returned back to work. It better prepared businesses on how to do that and how we were able to support them and how hiring military talent was really the key to that success. 

Coming through it, thinking through a different lens I'll call it instead of saying we pivoted. We pivoted, got a pivot, pivoting and as everything can't pivot, you're going to fail. I swear to God, if I hear pivot one more time, I still might lose it but essentially, I guess that's what it really was, is that we took a deep look at what was most important, re-introducing the biggest and best value we could add and we just wanted to bring it in the best way.

Cliff  51:39

You adjusted?

Natalie  51:40

Reasonable. 

Cliff  51:41

Natalie, I know that you have another other appointment you have to get to. We'll wrap this up. I'm going to quickly just pivot to-- Sorry, I had to throw it in there. 

I'm going to just ask you to relay your best advice for veterans who are in transition post and post transition. What's the best advice you can give somebody who's out there, who's looking for work, whether or not they're veteran, whether or not they're about to be a veteran or became a veteran 10 years ago?

Natalie  52:20

Yes, no matter where you are in your process, if you got five years left and if you're thinking about going in and you want to know what's next or you're underemployed or unemployed, wherever you are in your journey, you are not alone. It is so important to know there are people, there are organizations. Good people and good organizations that exist to help you at no cost and that anything you want to create, you can make it happen. You need the right people in your corner and by deciding and defining what that really is for yourself that will help you navigate into the right direction. 

Reaching out for a mentor is so pivotal and I'm telling you, we are happy to put you on that path. It doesn't have to be with us directly. We partner with the best mentorship organizations in the world and we work hand in hand and helping people get set up there as well. 

It's not just a one stop shop, it's our way or the highway. Our way is customizing it to you and you realizing that you're number one your first priority and that you can create anything. Those are power moves and by taking them and taking full advantage, you can go anywhere and do anything but just remembering that you're not alone. 

And if you forget everything that I said, all you have to do is go to militarytalentpartners.com, reach out to us there. You can find me personally on LinkedIn or Instagram @Military.Talent.Partners or on our LinkedIn page. We're there every day talking to people back and forth, scheduling mentorship calls, and just getting out there to get what needs done and we're always in your corner.

Cliff  53:55

There you have it. Well, thank you to Natalie Oliverio and Military Talent Partners and thank you for all you're doing for everybody out there and I really appreciate the conversation.

Natalie  54:07

I do too. Thanks so much for having me and thanks for having this amazing podcast and such great resources for veterans and their families.

Cliff  54:14

Thank you. 

All right, folks. That's a wrap with Natalie Oliverio of Military Talent Partners. I wanted to thank Natalie for joining us on the podcast. She's obviously a tremendous resource for veterans, for the spouses of veterans, for transitioning service members. Also for corporations, small businesses, medium sized businesses, anybody who wants to put together a veteran centric team or look into their veteran hiring strategy, go ahead and reach out to her. 

She's-- Overall, she's just a great human being, a great person, and somebody who I genuinely enjoy talking to. Also, if you get a chance, go ahead and click that subscribe button for this podcast. You can do so on just about any podcast service out there. We're listed and make sure you join us next time. 

In the meantime, if you want to go to our Instagram and Facebook and LinkedIn please do so. The notes will be-- Excuse me, the ads will be in the show notes and when you get a chance also go to veteranlife.com. That's www.veteranlife.com. 

All right. Until next time. [Inaudible 00:55:43].