Jon Macaskill | Mindfulness & Being Where You Are

On this episode of Return to Base we are pleased to present former U.S. Navy SEAL Commander and the co-host of the Men Talking Mindfulness Podcast, Job Macaskill.

Jon served for 26 years in the Navy, mostly in the SEALs, before transitioning in 2020 and embarking on his civilian journey. Along the way, Jon’s journey was altered by a global pandemic and coming to the realization he was working in the wrong industry. YET, Jon followed some sage advice and got a lot of help along the way before realizing that what he was MEANT to do was something he ENJOYED doing. The rest, as they say, is history.

While transitioning, Jon was introduced to meditation by a therapist. Skeptical as he was, he gave it a shot and stuck with it. This practice opened his eyes to the concept of mindfulness and the benefits of living in the present. Before long, he partnered with a New York hippie to found the Men Talking Mindfulness Podcast which he airs LIVE on LinkedIn, and in the future, YouTube. Talk about a bold move.

To learn more about Jon and the MtM podcast visit https://mentalkingmindfulness.com/

Check them out on Instagram at: https://www.instagram.com/mentalkingmindfulness/

Connect with Jon on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonmacaskill/ and https://www.linkedin.com/company/men-talking-mindfulness-podcast/

Finally, to check out the work Jon is doing with Dr. Theresa Larson and the Mindfulness and Movement Experience, visit www.movement-rx.com/mtm

This episode was made possible in part by the good AMERICANS at Black Rifle Coffee Company.

Transcript

RTB Ep. 9 - Jon Macaskill

Cliff  00:00

Hey there! everybody and welcome back to the Return to Base Podcast. On today's episode we're going to be talking about; mindfulness, meditation and badass Navy SEAL shit with Former Navy SEAL Jon Macaskill, who is also the co-host of the Men Talking Mindfulness Podcast. So stay tuned! [unintelligible]

This is Returned to Base, a Veteran Life Podcast

Welcome back to the Return to Base Podcast, brought to you by Veteran Life. I'm here today with a great guest Jon Macaskill, Former Navy SEAL, and the co-host of the Men Talking Mindfulness Podcast. How's it going, John?

Jon Macaskill  01:00

It's going well, Cliff. How you doing?

Cliff  01:02

Not too bad. For those out there in the world. This is like media magic. You'll probably hear this in February sometime, but this is January 4th now. So Happy New Year, John. And hope your holidays and everything went well?

Jon Macaskill  01:17

Yeah. Thanks, brother. Yeah, it was a funny holiday season. I actually went to the Army vs Navy game on December 11th with a bunch of army guys. So I was severely outnumbered. But we ended up winning that one, but I got COVID from like... I think 16 or 17 of us ended up with COVID and it put me down pretty hard. I mean, certainly not as bad as it could have been but I was in bed and isolated. I have an RV, the Recreational Vehicle, and I isolated in there for about two and a half weeks. It was super boring. 

Cliff  01:55

Wow. 

Jon Macaskill  01:56

I didn't want my family to get it, and you know, it was it was some forced downtime. Because I have a way of even if I scheduled downtime on my calendar, I have a way of filling it up with stuff. And it was it was probably a good thing that I had forced downtime, but I was I was back up and partially in running for Christmas and New Years. So it was a good break.

Cliff  02:21

Yeah. You heard it here folks that blaming the Navy [crosstalk 02:27] if army won, it probably would have been different story.

Jon Macaskill  02:29

I think because army didn't win they felt the need to give me.

Cliff  02:33

They must have been what it was.

Jon Macaskill  02:35

My brother in law who's in army... Yeah, he calls that new variant that the what is it? Omicron? 

Cliff  02:41

Omicron. 

Jon Macaskill  02:42

He called it Army Cron.

Cliff  02:45

Yes, John Macaskill got the army cranberries, probably patient number zero. And the Army Navy game is a super spreader event, but probably well worth it. Hopefully everybody else who was on your ship recovered well, or... [crosstalk]

Jon Macaskill  02:59

Yeah, it was funny man. We had this massive text going back and forth about who had it and what the different symptoms that were going on and everybody's back up. I mean, there's still some lingering after effects, some fatigue and some brain fog, but for the most part, pretty close to 100%. Maybe my voice is a little bit scratchy. But other than that, I'm feeling pretty good.

Cliff  03:23

Somehow. I've avoided the COVID. 

Jon Macaskill  03:27

Yeah. 

Cliff  03:28

However, my wife just tested positive not too long ago. 

Jon Macaskill  03:32

Oh, yeah. 

Cliff  03:32

Yeah, but she had no symptoms. So... 

Jon Macaskill  03:35

Oh wow. 

Cliff  03:36

It kind of ruined our Christmas plans and stuff like that. But somehow my children and I didn't test positive ever. So, I hope she doesn't mind me talking about. 

Jon Macaskill  03:53

May be we get edited out later? 

Cliff  03:54

Yeah, maybe we'll have to edit that out. But yeah, so as mentioned, John was a Navy SEAL, and serve that an integral part of our country's history. Definitely, all through the GY era from you said 96 to 2000. Right?

Jon Macaskill  04:14

96 to 2020.

Cliff  04:16

I'm sorry, to 2020. Yes. So, obviously, during that time period, things got busy. It's interesting, though, because when you joined there weren't a whole lot going on.

Jon Macaskill  04:30

Yeah, definitely [crosstalk] Yeah, exactly.

Cliff  04:35

I joined in 98. And I got sent to Germany for a little while, and right up until 9/11. It was a peace army. People were getting sent to Kosovo and stuff. I never got to go but you could definitely, let's just say shining our boots and pressing our uniforms was of utmost importance during that time period.

Jon Macaskill  04:39

I remember those days.

Cliff  04:50

[crosstalk] When you're not deployed, and then finally, somebody had the smarts to? Well, they gave us in the army, they gave us the world's worst uniform. But they also gave us the [unintelligible 05:02] boost that we didn't have to. 

Jon Macaskill  05:20

Yeah. Appreciate that.

Cliff  05:23

But yeah, it's something else going from a peacetime military, or even low level conflict type military to the full war machine of the United States military. Almost every night, right? It's what that your experience?

Jon Macaskill  05:41

Yeah, man. I was in buds [phonetic 05:45] when the planes hit the towers in the Pentagon. And I remember very specifically, one of our instructors, he pulled the entire class out, out on the beach, actually, several classes all lined up, side by side. And there he stood up on this black platform, and he addressed all of us. So at the time.... So let's see... I was not classed up, I was at buds [phonetic 06:14], but hadn't officially started. I didn't start until January of 2002 as a class, but I was doing what's called Pre-Training Rest and Recovery, PTR. But whatever.... The classes were out there on the beach, and this instructor stands up on, you know, after we had already seen what had happened, we knew what was going on. And everybody was trying to jump on. Our cell phones and call home and call New York City to see if our loved ones that were there, were injured or part of this whole thing. And we couldn't get through just like everyone else was doing at the same time, which is why we couldn't get through. But this instructor is like.... You know, this is probably the turning point, or the major turning point for us as a military and us as special operations. 

And he compared it to Pearl Harbor. And how Pearl Harbor had brought us into World War Two. And that this was going to bring us into what he thought was going to be America's longest war. And you know, this is 9/11, [crosstalk 07:24] Exactly right. And here we are 20 years plus later. And, you know, we're still fighting it in one form or another. 

So yeah, he was spot on. It was absolutely a turning point. And I knew then that my career in special operations was going to be vastly different than some of my predecessors who had brought me into special operations, like you mentioned that they'd been in Kosovo and the Balkans and some of the other places, but certainly not what we've seen over the last 20 years.

Cliff  08:01

Yeah. So what were you doing before you went to buds? You mentioned you were enlisted?

Jon Macaskill  08:06

Yeah. So I was enlisted in the Navy. I enlisted as a parachute rigger. And then served just shy of a year, as an enlisted guy got picked up to go from the enlisted ranks to the Naval Academy. Graduated in class of 2001. And went straight to SEAL training as an officer, junior officer. And then May 2001, graduated the Naval Academy, in SEAL training, and at least the pre training part of buds in September, and then September 11. happened, and then the rest of the world changed.

Cliff  08:45

Yeah, your instructor or what do you call it cadre?

Jon Macaskill  08:50

Yeah, it was a chief. Yep.

Cliff  08:54

He was me spot on. Probably the nicest he was you to the entire time. [laughter] Get back in the water. 

Jon Macaskill  09:01

Exactly. 

Cliff  09:03

Right. How was your buds experience that...? What you thought True Blue or you have any setbacks?

Jon Macaskill  09:10

Yeah, I did so. I was there in September, like I said, and I was supposed to class up with class 238 in October, and I did class up with them. But I did something stupid. I went out from the Naval Academy where you party a little bit, but you don't party as hard [crosstalk] Yeah, exactly. 

So I went out to San Diego. You know, I was still young and dumb. Now I'm just old and dumb, but I was young and dumb and I partied entirely too hard initially on the weekends. And so when I classed up with class 238 I had pneumonia and literally made it through about 75% of the first day, and then I was out on the obstacle course, on the slide for life ended up because of the pneumonia, my fatigue, just wore me out and I fell off the slide for life. 

Basically, sand darted into the ground. And one of the instructors came up and I was spitting up blood and ended up getting a roll from class 238, 239, which started in January of 2002. And that was my class. So I started with 239 and went all the way through what 239.... Although I'd gotten rolled after one day of 238, so I don't really count 238 as my class, just because I only did one day, but....

Cliff  10:44

Yeah, you didn't even know those guys. 

Jon Macaskill  10:45

Yeah, exactly. I knew my Naval Academy classmates that were in my class, but I don't remember many guys from that class, one or two. 

Anyway, we had a crazy cold hell week it was.

Cliff  11:02

I mean, it's never a good time to start. It's probably the worst.

Jon Macaskill  11:06

It's either really cold, and you got really long nights. And the waves are really big. That's the winter classes. Or the summer classes are just physically beaten down just because the instructors have to kind of beat you down because the waves are smaller, it's warmer, so that it really depends on what time of year you go through what type of torture you're going to get. But yeah, I ended up going through hell week in February of 2002. And it was one of the coldest hell weeks on record, it actually snowed and I'm not kidding. It literally did snow in San Diego, during our hell weekend the instructors all said, Hey, we ordered this weather for you guys. So yeah, it was fun. 

But all in all, I mean, looking back on it 20 years later, so I actually about 20 years, almost to the day now. Since I class up, it was a lot of fun going through it when you look back on it, right? I'm sure when you look back on your time in the service. You remember the high points; you don't remember too many of the low points. And it was brutal, and it was miserable. But looking back on it, I remember laughing a lot. I remember looking to my left and right knowing that after Hell Week... You know, the guys that you go through the rest of the training with.... Have a lot of fun with, and your brothers.... So you still stay in contact with many of the guys that I was in buds with. So it's good time.

Cliff  12:47

Yeah, you mentioned, it's one of those things where... You say you remember the highs, I kind of look at it like the lows become the highs. And then the highs become almost like high ground. Like I don't really remember too much of the "Good times" [unintelligible 13:12] It's seems that in my memory, it's all the stuff that sucked.

Jon Macaskill  13:17

Yeah, you're right. The stuff that's stuck. It's now we can all get together and laugh about it. 

Cliff  13:24

That's right. I think one of my instructors at one point, we're done getting our counseling and he says, "Hey! that's suck, right?" I was like, "Yeah, that sucked." He said, "You're welcome." Just [laughter] remember that. And you're this is probably going to be you're going to look back. And it's going to be a fond memory. He was right. But luckily, I was able to make it through. For some reason, a lot of people were dropping like flies in North Carolina during that summer.

Jon Macaskill  14:01

North Carolina in the summer man [crosstalk]

Cliff  14:04

Yeah, my lip has a tendency to start getting numb. My face is kind of tingling. And I know my home, man. I'm in trouble. But luckily, I don't know by the grace of God, I was able to make it different. So the rest of your career from going to buds, finishing buds and then going off to the teams. Tell me a little bit about your experience there, and you don't have to get into anything super specific. Although you would have wrote a book about it if it was very cool, let's be honest, right. 

Jon Macaskill  14:44

Every SEAL has a book. 

Cliff  14:45

Every SEAL as a book.

Jon Macaskill  14:46

At least one. Yeah, all kidding aside I am writing one but it has nothing to do with my SEAL career or very little to do with my SEAL career and more to do with what I'm doing now. 

So yeah, graduated buds, you know that summer in 2002 went out to SEAL qualification training or went across the street really to SEAL qualification training. So you've got buds on the western side of orange. What is it? I'm going to screw it up... orange [crosstalk 15:18] Yeah, it's called the Silver Strand, it is the nickname for it, and then you've got the, the naval amphibious base on the other side. And that's where SEAL qualification training is. And that's kind of like.... Buds is kind of the rite of passage to get into SEAL qualification training. And then SEAL qualification training is, for lack of a better term is kind of like the gentleman's course to become a SEAL. Right now, you've earned your right to become a SEAL. You haven't become a SEAL yet, but you've earned your right to become a SEAL. So SEAL qualification training is another 6 months where you do basically everything that you do in the SEAL teams, you do some airborne training, some maritime training, some dive in some shooting, some land navigation, some ground tactics, working together as a team immediate action drills everything that you kind of see a SEAL team doing, and then from there, you get sent out to your SEAL teams.

Cliff  16:15

Real quick, did you have to go to jump school for parachute rigging School at Fort Benning [phonetic 16:23] or said Were you already airborne?

Jon Macaskill  16:26

No, I wasn't. So parachute rigor in the Navy... What I really was, that's what it's called PR parachute. But really the true rating is aircrew survival equipment, man. And [crosstalk 16:45] Yes, exactly. Our stitch pitch is [crosstalk 16:53] but I worked on ejection seats and survival equipment for pilots. Okay. So you know, making sure that their flares were their pills to clear water, some drinking water, those types of things. And obviously, it connected to the ejection seat. So it's a little bit different than a parachute rigger in the army, or at least the traditional parachute in the army. 

Some parachute riggers in the Navy go on to get qualified and they end up normally working with the SEAL teams. 

Ironically, I was not qualified as a parachute... As a jumper when I was a parachute rigger, and then later as I went through SEAL qualification training, this is back in the day before the Navy had our own jump school. We did have to go through Fort Benning 

Cliff  17:43

Army training, they called it.

Jon Macaskill  17:45

Yeah, dude, I'll tell ya. That was probably the hardest part. And the only reason that like, not physically, but dealing with the BS, in the BS at Benning so much BS so much, man, like lining up on the cables at 4:30am so that you can get ready to jump at 09 [unintelligible 18:07] or something ridiculous. I was like, this is ridiculous....

Cliff  18:12

Yeah, those guys ready for the mass [crosstalk] 

Jon Macaskill  18:16

Oh, yeah. [crosstalk]

Cliff  18:17

There were[crosstalk]

Jon Macaskill  18:24

Yeah, if I hadn't gone through buds and gone through kind of hell in order to become a SEAL already. I may not have made it through that training, mostly because the [unintelligible 18:38]. So yes. And obviously that was a requirement back then to become a SEAL was to go through airborne training at Benning. So you have to do that. So anyway, since then, they've changed it in the Navy has their own jump school combined static line and freefall training. You know, the joke is [crosstalk 18:57] Yeah, sure enough. And the joke is that at Benning, they stuff, what is it. 

Stuff two weeks of shit into a three-week sock. Because, you know, you easily could have gone through it in two weeks. And now the Navy, you know, this is obviously I'm biased because I'm a Navy but the Navy jump school. You get the static line and the freefall. And so you come out a more qualified air operator- 

Cliff  19:27

In two days. 

Jon Macaskill  19:29

Not in two days. But pretty quick relatively. But again, like you said, airborne is there and done that way for a reason, so that you can get that mass exit out and you get tons of people qualified in that amount of time versus what we do, we get a lot fewer people qualified but they get more training.

Cliff  19:52

Well, you don't get the Army Airborne badge anymore. If you go through the Navy SEAL [phonetic] I don't know if you got to wear it on your...

Jon Macaskill  19:58

No, you get your gold jumped wings [phonetic]

Cliff  20:05

It's a rite of passage, and I've heard about this school that [unintelligible 20:16] So I interrupted earlier, we went on a tangent, but you were up to the point where you're getting to your team. [crosstalk] your west coast series...

Jon Macaskill  20:25

I went to East Coast. I actually ended up going to SEAL delivery vehicle team, which for your listeners, if they're not familiar with what that is. It's a mini submersible. It's basically a mini submarine, but it's wet. So you're diving the whole time you're in it, you're in this thing. But you're connected to air and you're wet. So it was a great time, it was a very unique mission. I loved the work, love the people that I worked with. But at the time, there just weren't as many missions for that particular team. 

So my first deployment though, I was assigned to SEAL delivery vehicle team to SDVT-2, I ended up getting attached to SEAL Team 10 while I was even a part of SDVT-2, and ended up deploying to Afghanistan, in 2005, for my first deployment, so when I went out there 2005 did that deployment, did a couple other stints to Afghanistan and Iraq between then and 2020.... Did a quick pump off the coast of Somalia, and then some other interesting places in the world, and got to see the world.

Cliff  21:44

Somewhere off the coast of Somalia. Interesting wat to put that. I don't want to speculate. So I won't ask, but cool. So overall, you felt that your career was great. You loved it, or do you wish you were an accountant? Kind of looks like you could be an accountant.

Jon Macaskill  22:14

I do. Especially now my eyes are getting old man. Like the rest of me. And I've actually had to start wearing glasses, which I never thought I would wear. But when I'm sitting in front of a computer or in on my phone, I have to wear glasses. 

So yeah, I guess [crosstalk] get this all man. But yeah... You know, I enjoyed my career, I worked alongside some of the most phenomenal men and women this country has to offer. If I could do it all over again, I absolutely would. There's some things I would probably do different. But yeah, there's definitely aspects of it that I would do in a heartbeat again. What I actually miss is that kind of sense of purpose, sense of mission that comes with being a military service member and sense of camaraderie, sense of tribe. I miss that a lot. And, you know, I seek it and find similar groups, but not quite the same. But, you know, I'll also tell you as I did my deployments to Afghanistan, Iraq, and you know, off of Somalia, but as an officer, I actually didn't see as much combat. As a lot of my brothers did, even fellow officers, and in a weird way, I think that caused me to feel almost inferior to some of my brothers in the SEAL teams, who had seen a lot of combat... We all trained for combat. And, you know, much like first responders, nurses in the ER, they trained for that. that patients come into the ER where we trained for combat. And when that nurse sees that patient come into the ER, they know they are on mission, and they do what they need to do, and they ideally save that patient. And sure they don't want anybody to come into the ER but when they do, they're on mission. 

Well, it's just like us that we train for special operations you go through, you basically sacrifice a good portion of your life to training. And there's a part of you that wants to put that training to train and work. 

Well, I honestly didn't see as much combat as some of my brothers and that in a weird way caused me... I think I've said an inferiority complex earlier, but really, I think it was almost like an imposter syndrome like these guys were tougher and had seen more than I had. But yet I was still rising through the ranks as an officer and I was in charge of them. So it was kind of this weird dynamic, but I learned a lot from that, and also learned a lot from those that had been in combat. And, you know, I apply that in my leadership, and as a leader today, in making sure that I'm compassionate with my people, and know what it is they're experiencing. Because maybe they have trained to do something, and they're not doing it. And that can be a tough pill to swallow, whether it's combat or whether it's something else. But yeah, it's...

Cliff  25:45

Yeah, you know, I hear that and to be honest with you, I spent most of my career in special operations and in my career "deployed, plenty seen, combat," but same thing where I was never any engaged in the big gunfight or anything like that. We went into plenty of houses, plenty of raids, we'll have to raids. And for one reason or another, you know, it's just never really transpired for me, which, at the time, you do feel that of inferiority. And as a matter of fact, at that period, when I first arrived to Iraq is fully qualified Green Beret [phonetic 26:29] was in 2009. And things are pretty chill. We were out there doing police type actions. I was working with a SWAT team out east. 

So we're going out and getting after it, but it was a low intensity type thing where a lot of the guys who I was with, felt the same way, you know, they hadn't been really tested. We were doing a lot. Don't get me wrong. We're doing heavy planning, collection.

Jon Macaskill  27:03

Yeah, exactly. Like you mentioned, I went to plenty of rage, plenty of assaults. And they were good. I mean [crosstalk 27:12] Exactly, we did what we had planned to do. But again, I know this probably for your non military audience. This is going to sound a little sick and twisted. I'm not a warmonger. I'm not going out and trying to pick a fight. But I've trained for a fight. And I don't want to say I would have liked to have seen one. But because [crosstalk 27:38] Yeah, I saw some, but I didn't... It wasn't as intense as some of my brothers experienced. And in a weird way, you feel a little disappointed or a little bit like you got left out. But again, I'm not a warmonger. 

Cliff  28:01

Same. And, you know, very interesting, at this period of time that I was talking about. A kind of a senior member of our group joined our ODA, [phonetic 28:14] and he's had been kind of known as a bullet magnet. 

Jon Macaskill  28:20

Oh, yeah. 

Cliff  28:21

You know, one of those guys who goes out of raids and or on missions, and it just always happens... Hey, what's up man! now we're going to get some and he is very wise looked at us and said, "Hey, I just want all you young guys. Right now I want y'all to know that you can wish your ass into a firefight, but you can't wish your ass out of one. And I know some folks who wish, and some folks who even talk their way into deployments, where they knew that it would be pretty kinetic. And very quickly, that was their last firefight. So, horrible situation there. Obviously, they died doing what they loved, but it's one of those things. It's a weird thing..... Like you said, it's weird to talk to civilians about it. I want to get into action. I want to like see the shit.

Jon Macaskill  29:22

Yeah, exactly. 

Cliff  29:23

But at the same time, those bullets are real. Those bombs are real. Sometimes there's probably, I don't know, I guess, near 1000 members of our military in the last 22 years who didn't even know that they were in a firefight. Just that quick boom, and they're gone. So to kind of go back to that bit of imposter syndrome, I imagine.... You had mentioned that going up through the ranks, you might have asked yourself it that I earned this, like some of my other peers, maybe even surpass some of your peers, that you went to school or buds with. But that eventually carries over I think until when you get out of the military.... What was your experience getting out of the military? How would you handle it? And where do you land initially?

Jon Macaskill  30:32

Yeah. This could be a long story, but I'll try to keep it short. So I was on track to... So I put on 05 commanders in the Navy. And, you know, I was tracking along and my plan was to stay in for as long as I could, until it made sense for me to get out. And I had a daughter who ended up having some medical complications. And I ended up getting her enrolled in what we call the exceptional family program. She was an exceptional family member, and transferred from active duty. So this is 2015, or something like that. Transferred from active duty to what we call in the Navy, full time support, and full time support are the folks who are responsible for making sure the reserves are ready to be mobilized. 

So we actually fall under the reserve branch of the Navy, although we're serving full time. So it allowed me because of my daughter's medical situation, it allowed me some more flexibility, and allowed me to stay home more often. And I got selected to command a full time support unit out in Salt Lake City, which is ironic. Hey, everybody likes what the Navy, what do they have in Salt Lake City, they have got a small reserve unit there. They've got small reserve units the all over the country so that they can mobilize people in the case that they need them. 

Anyway, before I got out there, I'd left Virginia Beach area and heading to Salt Lake. And my sister was beat up on by her husband, my former brother in law, and I call them and he didn't answer because he's a coward. And he knew he saw who was on the other end of the phone and he didn't answer. So I sent him a barrage of texts basically telling them that if you laid another hand on my sister that I'd be paying a visit in a little bit more colorful language, and he took those texts and he follow electronic harassment charges against me. 

Cliff  33:02

Oh, wow, this is getting dark. 

Jon Macaskill  33:04

Yeah, it got pretty dark, pretty quick. So I told you so long story. I'll try to keep it relatively short. 

He brought me up on electronic harassment charges, NCIS got involved, the charges end up getting dropped, but NCIS because they were already involved. They told me it was like trying to unring a bell, which can't do obviously. So they treated me like a total criminal, did like the cheek swab, did mug shots and acted as though I'd killed somebody already and I'm like, hey, you know what? You guys are getting involved in a family feud. This is ridiculous, but apparently Special Operations Training they expect [crosstalk 33:51] It's the movies right? Like, Hey, okay, these hands are lethal weapons, but// Yeah, whatever they've watched too much Hollywood. But anyway, I got brought up on those and I got relieved of my command qualification. Yeah, before I saw I didn't get to take command of that, that unit on Salt Lake. And I basically had to turn right around and go back to Virginia Beach. 

And so now I had this big black mark on my military record, even though I had served honorably all up until then done like met all the wickets, now I was pissed Honestly, I was pissed, and they're like, Hey, look we basically did this to protect the Navy because we couldn't have this on the front page of Navy times that Navy SEAL threatens brother in law. But hey, okay, sure. Yeah, you got to protect the Navy. I understand that but you also got to take care of your sailors, and I considered that I sacrificed a good portion of my life. 

So ended up getting brought up on these electronic harassment charges, get my command qualification dropped. They're like, "Hey, look, we'll continue taking care of you. You can get a command qualification back in 3, 4 years and you can continue tracking." I'm like, "You know what, after that I'm done." 

So, now fast forward, it's 2019 or so. And I'm looking at getting out. And I guess it's actually 2018. Now it's the middle of 2018. And one of my old bosses, an 06 that had been at SEAL Team 06. He pulled me aside, and he's out of the Navy now, this guy, when he's talking to me, he's like, "Look, I know you're angry. I know, you want to get out. If you want to get out, you need to start thinking about what it is you want to do when your time is up." 

And so I had two years left, it was Summer 2018. And I was like, boss, I got two years he got 20 time. Now that two years is gonna go by real quick.... Yeah, man, it flew by. But he was like, you need to figure out what it is you want to do start talking to people in different industries. Figure out what industry you want to fall into, figure out what location you want to go. Figure like, this is now an opportunity for you to form your life to decide what it looks like, you get decide where you want to live, you can't decide what it is you want to do. The Navy is not going to tell you, this is you. 

So literally that night, I went home and I sat down, I wrote down all the things that I could appeal to me, I was like, okay, you know what, I want to make decent money. So let me look at commercial real estate, let me look at private equity, look at finance, all these different things kind of bright and shiny objects that are out there. And those are great jobs. Don't get me wrong, I think they they're great jobs. But after a while after interviewing people in those fields, I was like, "You know what, this doesn't appeal to me." Even though it's decent money. There's not just doesn't jump out at me as something I'm passionate about. 

And at the same time, I was struggling with;

1. The military kind of treating me like they had. 

2. The imposter syndrome that I mentioned. 

3. There was some survivor's guilt, because I'd lost some good friends on the battlefield. 

And that was causing me a lot of anxiety and stress. I started going to see a counselor who recommended meditation to me. And initially, I kind of laughed at him. I was like, Dude, I got some real stuff going on. I don't know what the snake oil meditation stuff [crosstalk 37:33]. Yeah, exactly. You want me to sit still and do nothing for 30 minutes? No? Well, little did I know, I just didn't know enough about it. And then he kind of sat down with me. And he's like, Well, here's what meditation is, here's what it does for you physiologically in your brain. Here's what it's going to allow you to do. It's going to allow you to perform better focus, better kind of get through some of this depression, figure out what the story is that you're telling yourself so you can process it about this survivor's guilt and this imposter syndrome, and I did, I started meditating. And I started to be able to process all that. And so, one hand I've got this, Hey, what industry am I going to go into? And on the other hand, I'm learning about meditation. And then I realized, you know what, I can put these together and maybe create a career around it. Interesting. So I went through the Honor Foundation, which is Special Operations transition foundation. It's kind of started with the SEALs, but now it's with SEALs and Special Forces, the Raiders, Marine Raiders. And a lot of folks who've gone through this, the Honor Foundation, also went through the Commit Foundation. And

Cliff  38:50

We just had a Michelle.

Jon Macaskill  38:51

Yeah, Michelle is fantastic. I just texted her yesterday. She's fantastic. 

Cliff  38:56

Should be happy to hear you're talking to me. 

Jon Macaskill  38:54

Yes, Michelle is fantastic. I love her. She's who got me into the Commit Foundation. Commit foundation sent me out here to Colorado Springs for a workshop and I’ve been out here before to Colorado Springs, but totally fell in love with it just during that three or four days that I was out here for a commit and I was like, you know what? OK. Now, I know what I want to do to I know where I want to live because I-- My wife wanted to live out in Colorado anyway. 

I was like, Colorado Springs is it. Let's do it. We made a plan and we acted on it. I mean, full on military planning, did the-- At least what we call the Navy, the plan of action and milestones. We did that. Hey, we’re like, OK, August of 2020, we want to be in Colorado Springs. That's backwards planned from that. What do we need to do to do that? And the commit Foundation, the Honor Foundation, American corporate partners, and some of the other transition programs that are out there, I participated in. I went through darkness Business School tuck, they have tuck next step, they have a 10 day program that's for transitioning service members, and for transitioning elite athletes, which is a unique mix and what do they have in common but they have a lot in common. 

Cliff  40:18

Yes.

Jon Macaskill  40:18

These superstar athletes, Olympic athletes, professional football, basketball, player, baseball, they've committed their life to this one thing and now that one thing, I mean, they're getting older, right? So they're not going to be as competitive. They're still fantastic people but now they need to figure out what their next chapter is going to look like. Same thing that we're doing in the military. Hey, what does our next chapter look like? 

Anyway, we ended up becoming best friends. I've got gold medalists best friends. I got former NBA players best friends. It's a wild mix. Anyway, went through all that and then got the last six months of my military career got connected with what's called Skill Bridge, you've probably heard of that cliff. 

Skill Bridge allows during the last six months of your career, if the military allows you to do it, if they sign off on it, you can go and do an internship with a civilian organization and still get paid by the military. It's a fantastic deal. 

Cliff  41:23

Highly realistic.

Jon Macaskill  41:24

Yes, absolutely. I mean, I couldn't have asked for more. I actually went and did an internship with a nonprofit called Veterans Path. Veterans Path is a civilian organization but they provide introduction to mindfulness and meditation to veterans to help them find the word PATH is an acronym for Peace, Acceptance, Transformation, and Honor and I work with them after I got out of the military and did my-- When the internship was done, I worked with them for another six months and then ended up moving on for different reasons and became an entrepreneur and now, like you mentioned in the intro, I’m cohost for a podcast called “Man talk on mindfulness” and the tagline is, what happens when a Navy SEAL commander and a hippie meditation teacher get together to talk about mindfulness? What we don't know and we really don't. 

We have no idea what every show is going to look like. It's-- We just have a lot of fun and we do it live. We broadcast it live. We've been doing it on LinkedIn and we're going to be doing it on YouTube moving forward but yes, we've had some awesome guests, and we want to bring Bessel Van der Kolk, one of your guests, your initial guests on our show. Yes.

Cliff  42:45

See if I can put in a good work.

Jon Macaskill  42:46

There you go. That’d be great. Yes, that's, I guess, the long and short of it. Now I live out in Colorado Springs, I've got three young kids. I've got a four year old, a two year old, and a seven month old and I'm out here with my beautiful bride and we've got a small farm with horses and chickens, dogs and cats. Yes, it's an adventure but yes, it's a new life.

Cliff  43:10

You're-- It's very interesting, how you took a new, I don't know, new experience, something that you hadn't even considered, and very quickly pivoted that into, hey, I could do this. In my mind, I'm thinking, wait a minute, how does somebody earn a living doing this?

Jon Macaskill  43:35

I'm still trying to figure that out.

Cliff  43:37

[Crosstalk 00:043:38] you open up your jacket, hey, man, I got some mindfulness here. Let's go some meditation. What’s going on?

Jon Macaskill  43:44

Well, hack man. If I'd gotten in five or six years earlier, maybe I could have gotten in with calm. You know the calm? 

Cliff  43:52

That's right. 

Jon Macaskill  43:52

Billion dollar industry. Mindfulness and meditation itself is a multi-billion dollar industry every year but I didn't get into it. I didn't get into the Navy to make money. I didn’t get into this to make money. I'm a retired O5 so I've got I've got a safety net there with the pension is to have that safety net [Crosstalk 00:44:11]. Yes, for sure.

Cliff  44:12

Hopefully you hear yourself along the way well enough too.

Jon Macaskill  44:15

Yes, I've got some disability coming in as well. That's helpful but it took a while to figure out how to make a living doing this and I do have-- Literally yesterday started a new job, an actual job. 

Cliff  44:34

Congratulations.

Jon Macaskill  44:34

Yes, that has very little to do with mindfulness. I'm a business developer for 3D Media, which is a virtual reality, augmented reality company working with DOD and very little to do with mindfulness there, though. I think, long term, there's going to be some connections there but I do the “Man talk mindfulness” podcast, which-- As you know podcasting is hard to make Living with but I do some independent executive coaching that includes mindfulness meditation. I do that as one of my gigs. 

I work with former marine or not former Marine, sorry. All the Marines that are listening, there's no such thing as a former Marine, right? Yes, a Marine veteran, Teresa Larson. She's a doctor of physical therapy and we have a program. That's the mindfulness movement experience. Its 21 days that people learn about how the mind and body are connected. There's some physical therapy that's tied in and mindfulness, because the two are so inextricably intertwined and then I work with my steady mind which is another mindfulness teaching organization with cognitive fitness is the way that we've termed it with my city mind and we teach a lot of first responders and healthcare workers, mindfulness meditation so they can deal with the stressors that are out there these days. 

There is a living to be made, you just got to figure it out with whether it's with mindfulness meditation or whether it's some other some other thing that you're doing.

Cliff  46:10

Want to just dive a little bit deeper into mindfulness but first, I do want to mention you. Obviously, you're talking about your podcast, I listen Live actually as often as I can. Sometimes I listen to the recordings. Everybody out there, I highly recommend giving it a look. When I first started this podcast, I started researching different podcast by veterans and came across yours and loved it. It's-- You guys really keep it light and--

Jon Macaskill  46:42

Have a lot of fun. 

Cliff  46:43

Yes, it is a lot of fun and in the fact that you do it live as ballsy but--

Jon Macaskill  46:48

Yes, we've experienced some hiccups with that along the way, like the connection will drop or one of us will say something that's like [Crosstalk 00:46:57] and we were-- At one point, we had the chat from our audience coming in and there's some great chat coming in, questions coming in from our audience and then from YouTube, you'll get this like, hey, girls. Oh come on man.

Cliff  47:18

Quick. Let's hide that.

Jon Macaskill  47:20

Oh, man. Yes.

Cliff  47:20

But you also mentioned-- You mentioned a lot of different resources. The Honor Foundation, now the Special Operations transition foundation. 

Jon Macaskill  47:32

Yes, like that’s the--

Cliff  47:33

SODIF.

Jon Macaskill  47:33

Yes.

Cliff  47:33

That's a really good little, what do you call it? Acronym. Yes, exactly. Anybody who looks anybody in special operations will look at it but that stands for SODIF. The Commit foundation and Michelle olive, the American corporate partners scope bridge, I bring all this up just to mention that you weren't afraid to get help. You weren't afraid to ask questions, find mentorship. Whereas a lot of us are a bit stubborn, you talk to-- A lot of us have a tendency to talk to people with an idea of where you want that road to go which I think is not conducive to growth is it and I'm guilty of it for sure. 

During my transition, I had no idea what the heck was going on but, I found myself sometimes talking to people with hoping that something it went down a certain path and getting disappointed when it didn't instead of just being open and listening to what they had to say but talk about a little bit how just that decision or that vulnerability of allowing yourself to get help and ask for help.

Jon Macaskill  48:56

I think a lot of it started with that conversation that I had with my previous boss who is still a mentor of mine to this day when he got out-- He got out as an O6 having worked with SEAL Team Six and led over there and assumed Hey, I'm gold. He was a naval academy grad SEAL Ranger. He had gone through a few course he had done it all right and when you walk into a joint world. Joint is spelled ARMY and when you walk in as a CEO and you have a ranger tab and the Special Forces.

Cliff  49:44

Oh, Yes. 

Jon Macaskill  49:44

Like you instantly get respect. You assumed, hey, when he got out that, he was going to just land whatever job he wanted and he did-- He landed a great job out the gates but it was a work. It was a job that again what he wasn’t passionate about and he told me that he didn't spend enough time on his transition as an O6 and told me that I should spend more time on mine and that's why I spent that last two years really figuring out who I was not who not who commander Macaskill was-- Who Jon Macaskill was outside of uniform, right?  

I knew, at some point I was going to hang that uniform up and I was going to have to know who I was inside out and I spent a lot of time doing some deep introspective work and figuring out what it was that I wanted to do and that required me to ask for help. It required me to ask questions that were scary to ask like, hey, what if I go out on my own and become an entrepreneur? And some people had done that and failed miserably and they're like, well, if you're prepared to fail but learn from it and you're-- You have some type-- If you're able to get back up on your feet, then try it out. 

Cliff  51:08

Yes.

Jon Macaskill  51:08

If you don't fail or if you-- If after your failures, because there's going to be plenty of failures along the way. If after your failures, you can learn from that, grow from that, then take a chance on yourself and if I hadn't ever asked those questions, I would have probably gone and done some other job and found myself terribly miserable or doing something that I wasn't passionate about and not doing what-- I joined the military because I have a hard service because I wanted to serve others and that's what I want to do now, still, I want to serve others in just a different capacity and if I hadn't done that work of having to ask the questions and learn about the different industries, then I wouldn't have found what I needed to do. 

Funny enough that the importance of asking for help is our first episode on “Man talk mindfulness” next season. We're going to record that next Friday. What’d you say today is? January 4th-- On January 14th, we're recording one on the importance of asking for help because as a as a military member, it's tough to do as a further refined as a special operator. 

Like, I got this. I can muscle through this. I can man up and figure it out on my own and then using that term, to man up. I think as a man a lot of the time, it's tough for us to, or at least a masculine type. 

Cliff  52:35

[Inaudible 00:52:35]. Another way [Inaudible 00:52:38].

Jon Macaskill  52:38

Yes, exactly. It's tough for us to ask for help because if it feels as though by asking for help, you're showing a weakness. When in fact, it's completely opposite by being brave enough to ask for help. That takes a lot of guts, it takes a lot of strength. For me, in my opinion, now, it has changed over time. For those who don't ask for help, those are the ones who are honestly, I don't want to say weak but they're scared. There's a reason they’re not asking for help and in this a lot of the time, it's because they're scared.

And if you can overcome that fear, and ask anyway, that's being courageous, that's bravery. That's a very different definition of bravery. It's being scared and doing it anyway. How many times did we go on those raids and in the movies, you see these SEALs, and you know they're all hard and they're going out and like, I'm tough and brave, and invincible. There were some freaking raids that were scary. There were some assaults that were scary as hell, there was times when fast roping at night, 60 feet into some village that you have no idea what's down there. That's freaking scary but you do it anyway and that's what's bravery is and so manning up womanning up, whatever you want to call it? Yes.

Cliff  54:08

There's probably a--

Jon Macaskill  54:11

Gender neutral term.

Cliff  54:12

Modern term now. Let's say-- I don't know, we'll come up with it but the fear of asking for help was something that I think is going away but it was definitely a part of the culture. Close your ears if you're sensitive to things but if you went and asked anybody for any help, I think-- Even your medic, they would diagnose you with acute vaginitis. [Crosstalk 00:54:45] and so, all very-- In a way you look back and understand now that it is a bit of a toxic culture. 

Jon Macaskill  54:55

Yes, it can be. 

Cliff  54:55

We thought that it was important to remain that way. 

Jon Macaskill  54:59

Yes. I mean, you just think that by putting stuff out there like that you're helping toughen somebody up. Yes and it does. I mean to, there is something to be said about figuring something out on your own. Right? But there's also something to be said about why waste your time and energy reinventing the wheel, you don't have to figure everything out on your own, you can ask for help. You can ask for the from those who have been through it down that road before you can ask for help and save yourself time and energy and then now that you're, you've learned and you're standing on the shoulders of those who have gone before you, now you can reach down and help somebody else and truly, I think that makes you better. It makes your team better. It makes your organization better. Right? For most of the things. Yes. I mean, if you've come to me and asking me, how to polish your boots or something stupid like that. You better figure that out. Right? Yes.

Cliff  56:01

And Jon, you listen to advice, you sought advice, you built a plan. You executed a plan but something tells me that it didn't go off as you had planned as most of the plan do. What are, real quickly here is, what are some of the things that that went wrong? I mean, even though you planned it all out and you probably had a A+ effort in your execution of your transition plan, I'm sure things didn’t go.

Jon Macaskill  56:39

Yes, man. I mean, that plan of action of milestones that I mentioned, right? Like, hey, putting a target on the calendar, August 2020. This is where I want to be, this is what I want to be doing, and then back planning from that, that plan of action milestones, I literally had, you know, what 18 to 24 months, planned out on there and every month, I looked at it and it changed. Hey, look, OK, so I missed this mark, I missed this goal. I missed this target. I didn't get into this program. I didn't do this or that, whatever. It changed every month and I reassessed just like we do in the military, you got your branches and sequels on every mission, you got your contingency plans. That's what I did with that, as is I had contingency planning. 

What the ultimate goal was, in August of 2020, my wife and I were going to be driving around in our RV for between six months and a year with two kids. We started driving around in RV in July and this is in 2020, COVID was is still a fan. We drove through some spots where they wouldn't allow us to go through, we went to some parks that we had planned to see and they wouldn't allow us in there. I ended up throwing my back out on the o RV trip and my wife's like, we threw your backup for two days. If you're down for coat with COVID for two weeks or whatever and I've got two little kids to wrangle in an RV. That's not going to work. 

We ended up driving around for about a month and then ended up parking the RV here in Colorado Springs and saying OK, well now we need to find a home. We found a found a home so and made that works. That was you know, not according to plan but it worked out. The nonprofit that I worked with-- The nonprofit space wasn't exactly what I wanted to be working in still serving others is something but that the nonprofit space is it's a sales. It is, it can be sales. Exactly. Right. You got to raise money, donations, and you've got to do with all the fundraising. It's tough. Yes and that's not exactly the space that I wanted to work in. Which I very much applaud those who work in that space. I'm not knocking that because just it was it was not what I thought it was. That that plan of me working in the nonprofit space for the rest of my life was like, OK, you know what this is? This is not quite right. Now I'm an entrepreneurial space and my plan changes daily. I've got this giant whiteboard over here with all sorts of stuff scribbled on it, and--

Cliff  59:33

Right next year, your 14th floor view out your window

Jon Macaskill  59:40

That’s right, and now I've got a [Crosstalk 00:59:43].

Cliff  59:43

We’re talking about his background. 

Jon Macaskill  59:45

I’ve got the virtual background up. The virtual background is much more appealing.

Cliff  59:51

But contingency planning, I think is really what's important. putting all your eggs in a basket is always going to lead to some type of disappointment and I know some people along the way who had a really good plan and didn't get into that program that they really wanted to and had to find a different plan but I think it worked out for them in the end, but in the short term, they were really disappointed with it. 

Jon Macaskill  1:00:21

Yes.

Cliff  1:00:22

Having--

Jon Macaskill  1:00:22

They can’t get married to your plan.

Cliff  1:00:24

No, you can't and I think it's important to have great. Some people do just give up, unfortunately and that's why we have a lot of issues involving mental health, PTSD, and in not just PTSD. I think this is a good point here is, there's PTSD from trauma, either childhood or combat but then there's also like a different PTSD for those who are, maybe didn't experience any trauma, but still are dealing with very similar situation. Who-- It’s the, who am I injury?

Jon Macaskill  1:01:09

Yes. Moral injury from what you may have done on the battlefield, or maybe what you didn't do because maybe you didn't. Maybe you didn't step up when you thought that you should have. Yes, it'd be weird to maybe you were, again, I don't want to use the word scared but that one's that's what jumped up is maybe you're too scared to step up when you probably should have.

Having the imposter syndrome, having survivor's guilt. I mean, there's a whole list of things that all fall under trauma, whether it's physical trauma, whether it's combat trauma, whether it's military sexual trauma. Yes. Whether it's something from your childhood, it all falls under trauma of some form. We've all got something mentally that we're dealing with. 

Cliff  1:01:55

Absolutely. We're all human beings, regardless of--

Jon Macaskill  1:01:59

Exactly.

Cliff  1:01:59

Where we're at. Let's transition that into talking about mindfulness. What is mindfulness? And how can-- Not just veterans, but this is a veteran podcast. Let’s talk about veterans. 

Jon Macaskill  1:02:14

Yes. 

Cliff  1:02:15

How veteran specifically can use mindfulness to get through either some of the trauma or just the stressors of transitioning?

Jon Macaskill  1:02:25

Yes, sure. Great question, man. A lot of the time you hear the term mindfulness and the term mindfulness is used synonymously with meditation. Mindfulness is not meditation. Mindfulness can be meditation, or you can find mindfulness in a meditation but mindfulness is nothing more than being present in the here and now this present moment, physically, and emotionally, without any judgment, right here right now. 

Not thinking about what you did yesterday, not thinking about what's coming up later today, or later this week. It's literally paying attention to what is happening in your body physically, and emotionally, right here and right now. It's a way of living. It's what we call in the military or anywhere else, situational awareness. If you want to just use a different term that we're all familiar with his situational awareness, right? You're paying attention to what is going on around you and inside you. What is happening in your emotions, and physically? It's a way of living. 

Meditation, on the other hand, is where you set aside time to do a formal practice of some sort, whether it's two minutes, whether it's two hours, but the time of it doesn't, the length of it doesn't matter. It's the fact that you set aside time to do it and that's when you're focusing on some type of anchor, that anchor could be a body scan, like paying attention to your physical sensations up, starting at the top of your head and work your way down to your toes, or vice versa. It could be your breath, focusing on the physical sensation of breathing. It could be a mantra, so you have some saying that you say over in your head, and you focus on that. 

The bottom line is you want to be focused on something so that when your mind does wander off, because that's going to happen, when your mind wanders off, you can bring it back to that anchor. It's just like a ship, right? Your ship that is anchored, is going to kind of circle around and do different things but it's anchored in one spot the whole time, right. That's what a meditation is. 

Now, where they overlap, mindfulness and meditation is as you meditate, you're going to be more mindful in your life, you're going to be paying more attention to the present moment, you're going to be paying more attention to your physical and emotional feelings. In the present moment. You will be paying more attention to your people around you, your friends, your family, your coworkers. Meditation helps your mindfulness as you are more mindful. Your meditation improves because you're meditating, and you're being mindful, it's easier to focus on that anchor, again, whatever anchor that may be. 

The two of them have some overlap, and they support one another, but they're not one in the same. So I just always want to put that out so that your audience knows and then the other thing I want to put out really fast is they're not religious in any shape, form or fashion. Sure, there are religions that practice it more often than others but they don't have the exclusive right to meditation, a particular religion doesn't have that corner and say, OK, well, you have to be this religion in order to meditate. Yes, that's not true. 

I have my own religious beliefs and my meditation actually supports my religious beliefs but if you're not religious at all, you can meditate. If you're super religious, you can meditate. It's not going to supplant or replace your religious beliefs. Right. OK, so that all said, how some veterans or anyone else listening can get started. For veterans, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention veterans path. Again, that's the nonprofit that I worked with before that teaches mindfulness meditation to veterans and they've actually started moving left of the line, as far as transition. 

It's not just those who have hung up the uniform already there are offering mindfulness meditation to transitioning service members as well, which is important. If veteran's path isn't for you, there's you can start just by simply downloading an app. That's how I started I downloaded Insight Timer. There's tons of apps out there inside timer, E-mindful, com, there's tons of them, waking up 10%, happier some other ones. You can download an app, if an app isn't going to work for you, some of the things that I mentioned before where I actually teach mindfulness meditation through some several programs. That's my steady mind. Mycitymind.com, you can check that out for the cognitive fitness side of mindfulness and then movement RX is the program that myself and marine veteran run the 21 day mindfulness and movement experience. That's, that's another way that the folks can get started. 

Now, those are not free but they're fantastic programs for sure. I'm biased because I helped to put them together but the people who have been through them have had tremendous success and really helped themselves through mindfulness meditation.

Cliff  1:07:40

Awesome. I'm just to recap the TLDR for you boomers out there.

Jon Macaskill  1:07:51

Probably was too long.

Cliff  1:07:55

No, I thought that that was actually a very succinct and great description of the two and I've, I've read a little bit about practice of meditation and mindfulness, and you just reminded me of what it is and that metaphor of the anchor. Is, is, I think, important to remember and, I, if I'm not playing devil's advocate, it's more like, a realist question is for people out there is some people are kind of scattering, you know, and or have just a lot on their mind and so how do you-- What do you what do you tell people who are trying to do practice meditation, specifically, or even mindfulness and they get frustrated because all of a sudden, they're thinking about that job offer they got or thinking about the interview coming up, or the kids baseball game tomorrow while their sitting down?

Jon Macaskill  1:09:00

Total life man. Yes, life. Yes, that's--

Cliff  1:09:04

Is there something wrong with those people?

Jon Macaskill  1:09:05

Not at all. That's, that's perfectly natural. Your mind is made to think thoughts, just like your heart is made to be right. You can't stop your mind from thinking thoughts and those who think that meditation is you sitting down and just stopping your mind. That's, that's not what it is. It's settling your mind. It's settling your nervous system and it's selling your body. That's what meditation does for you. It doesn't stop your mind. 

When you sit down to meditate, and you notice that your mind has wandered off from that anchor. It's like you mentioned it's on the job offer. It's on the baseball game. It's on your to do list, it's on fixing your car, it's on whatever. That's OK. That's perfectly natural but don't hang on to those thoughts during meditation. When you notice that your mind has wandered off, bring it back to that anchor, whether it's your breath, whether it's the mind Whether it's a body scan, whether it's whatever it may be, whatever works for you to bring it back over and over and over, and, and be gentle with yourself. The thing is that a lot of time when people sit down to meditate and they notice their mind has wandered off, then they start cursing themselves out. 

They're like, well, I can't meditate. This is stupid. This is, you know, I'm not one of those people who can meditate and they convince themselves that they can't, they get frustrated and they're like, OK, well, meditation isn't for me. I did that. Yes, when that when the counselor initially recommended meditation for me, I was like, on this big, bad, hairy, scary frogman. I'm going to go home and meditate for an hour and meditated for exactly right. Super competitive type personality we're going to do today, bro.

Cliff  1:10:49

How long do you meditate for? Yes, exactly. Right.

Jon Macaskill  1:10:52

So I sat down for an hour and I'm meditating and about 17 seconds into that meditation. My mind was on anything but the meditation and I got pissed off. I was like, this, this shit doesn't work and I went back to that Doc and I came in meditation. I'm, I'm just not one of those people who can meditate. I'm too busy. My mind races. I've got too much going on. I don't have enough time. Is that OK? Well, what did you do? I told them, they sat down for an hour long meditation and made it about 17 seconds because like, well, hey, you're, you're in pretty good shape. Right? 

How did you get to be in good shape? I was like, Well, I worked at it. Like, exactly, you didn't show up to the gym, day one, and bench-press 300 pounds, you didn't show up to the starting line of a marathon without ever having run America without ever having run a mile, you worked your way up to that. Work your way up to an hour long meditation, don't jump right into it. 

I went back the next day after eating some humble pie and, and I did like a two minute meditation and I was able to make it through that two minutes. You know, even during that two minutes, my mind wandered, but I realized it and I brought it back to the anchor five 6-10 times through that two minutes and I was OK. I was like, alright, alright, I feel pretty good and with time, I did those two minute meditations several times a day and with time, then I was able to do a 10 minute meditation and with time, I was able to do a half hour meditation and then with time, I was able to do an hour long, I don't do an hour long every day, right?

I do 15 minutes in the morning, I do 15 minutes after lunch. That's my routine. If I can make that work. Ideally, that's what I try to do and I feel the benefits and I got to come back to when you notice that your mind has wandered off, and you come back over and over. That's literally where the rewiring of your brain happens. That's good. That's a good thing. It's like a mental push up that you're doing. 

You're rewiring your brain to be more focused, because you've noticed that your mind has wandered off and you're coming back to that point of focus that anchor and as you do that, over and over and over, you're literally rewiring, developing new neural pathways in your brain, so that you can be more focused, which is why the meditation helps the mindfulness and why the mindfulness helps the meditation but yes, my tip to somebody trying to get started is start simple and start short. Don't jump into a super in depth meditation, don't jump into an hour long meditation day one, because most likely you're going to get frustrated and then if you do find yourself getting frustrated, take it easy on yourself. Give yourself some grace like that and, and give yourself some space.

Cliff  1:13:32

Some grace and as far as mindfulness, living, mindful, this is live in a mindful life. In business and parenting, what are some, some tips let's say meditation is a part of my day to day life or practice but I just want to be in the moment you know, I've heard Yes, man that there's certain tips certain things like don't have your phone next to your bed.

Jon Macaskill  1:14:03

That's, that's a big one man, I do not sleep with my phone in my in my bedroom. You know, so many of us use our phones as our alarm clocks and just having your phone next to you. It's been shown that having your phone next year bad raises your anxiety levels. As your anxiety levels increased, you sleep more poorly as you sleep more poorly, become more tired, and it's even harder and harder to be more mindful. It's harder to be in the moment with your friends, with your family, with your colleagues, whatever with yourself. Tips to be more mindful if you're not going to if you're not going to sit down and practice meditation but tips to be more mindful are one. Yes, don't sleep with this next to you, too. I held up my phone.

Yes, so don't sleep with that. Next you two first thing you do in the morning. Don't grab your phone and start checking your notifications, your emails, your social media. Give yourself five 10-15 minutes, grab a cup of coffee, a cup of water and just be nice and slow. Just allow your body to transition from sleeping to being away before you grab your phone and start checking everything else. What's that crap that comes in through the night? Yes, it's just that it's crap anyway. So don't worry about it be there when you're done. Yes, it'll be there later and then the next thing is, is mindful meals. If you do nothing else besides this, this is going to be tremendously helpful. So if we have three meals a day, breakfast, lunch and dinner, focus on that your breakfast, lunch and dinner, don't wolf down a meal, while you're checking your social media, I'm again, holding up my phone, for those who are listening. 

While you're listening to the news, while you're doing 10, other things, stop everything, turn off your phone, put your phone aside, turn off your computer, and focus on the meal that's in front of you focus on your breakfast, noticing all the colors that are on your plate, all the senses that come into play in eating a meal. 

Do that again for lunch, do that again for dinner. That in and of itself will make your life more fulfilling, and you're live in the present moment more and more often and so when you are in the present moment, you can enjoy your family. Yes, like, again, I've got young kids, I don't if I don't live mindfully, I'll be focused on I'm an entrepreneur, I'm not living mindfully, then I'll be thinking about how to, you know, increase my business, I'll be thinking about my to do list my goals, blah, blah, blah, instead of being focused on a beautiful kids that are in front of me. It'll allow me to be more present and focus with my colleagues. When I'm talking to people like yourself, I'm paying attention to the conversation, I'm paying attention to the questions that you that you're asking, without trying to formulate an answer right off the bat. Yes. Right and that's a lot of the conversations that we have these days, people are thinking, one to thinking about something else completely. 

Or two, they're thinking about, what's my answer going to be to this statement, and then not being present and that can literally be changed by doing nothing else by eating besides eating three meals mindfully a day. So again, paying attention to all the senses that come into play in those mindful meals, everything comes into play. You see what's on your plate, you smell the smells of the-- You smell the sense of your food. Once you put that food in your mouth, your taste comes into play. There's obviously feel you feel the texture of your food and you can hear it. I know that sounds really weird, but you can hear yourself eat. Yes and then and then the emotional side of things like, why am I eating? Am I eating because I'm upset? Am I eating because I'm bored? Am I eating for any other reason, besides, I want to, like I literally want to taste this delicious food in front of me. 

Or I have to if you're eating besides any one of those, those two reasons, then you're eating for the wrong reasons. Interesting and that's you have to take that into consideration that so that can help you with your diet, too. Your way of eating. Those are some tips for you, man how to start meditating or live mindfully without meditation.

Cliff  1:18:23

I love it and I think you could almost retitle it tips to becoming a more likeable person. Honestly, if you just practice mindfulness, and you're in people who are present, you instantly recognize that trait in people. If you have any type of sensor on, you walk away from that conversation and you think, wow, that person was really present. That person was there and so, speaking, being present we've been present in this moment for a while now. Not counting but Jon, I want to thank you for being on our podcast, and want to encourage everybody to check out men talking mindfulness, you won't regret it and, and I'll put in the show notes, all the different websites that you mentioned and organized. Thanks, Jeff. I appreciate it. Any parting words, sir?

Jon Macaskill  1:19:27

No. Thanks, brother. I appreciate what you're doing and appreciate you having me on.

Cliff  1:19:31

Yes. Well, let's hope this isn't class. All right.

Jon Macaskill  1:19:35

Thank you. Take care, man.

Cliff  1:19:38

Everybody. Thanks for listening to this week's episode of return to base that of course, was John Macaskill, he former US Navy SEAL and the cohost of the men talking mindfulness podcast. We learned a lot this week, a little bit about meditation, a little bit about mindfulness and a lot about Jon's transition from the military to the civilian world, I took away personally, the definition or the idea of being mindful to be present in the moment and I'm definitely going to try to incorporate some of the tips that John had mentioned in this podcast. 

Also, I don't know if any of you have tried meditation out there, I have tried and it was pretty similar to what John was experiencing. During his first attempt at meditation, my mind kept on wondering, and it was really good to hear John say, number one, don't be so hard on yourself. Give yourself some grace and number two, it's natural for your mind to wander and bringing it back to that anchor point is something that, if you remember, will really help. 

I want to, again, thank John for being a guest thank him for spending as much time as he did with us, and want to encourage everybody to go check out the men talking mindfulness podcast, you can find it in our show notes and on LinkedIn, and it's just a really great resource and, you know, if you have a drive coming up, or you are able to listen to podcasts and stuff at work, I think it's a very insightful and intelligent podcast, and I really enjoy it. I encourage everybody to go out there, give it a listen, you'll like it. 

If you haven't already, please subscribed to this podcast on whatever podcast platform you'd like to listen to and visit us at veteran life.com And until next time, take it easy