Seth Eisenberg | Building Purpose Built Families

On this episode of Return to Base, we talk to the CEO of the Purpose Built Families Foundation, Seth Eisenberg. Seth and company have been offering reparative services through the Operation Sacred Trust (OST) Supportive Services for Veteran Families program serving homeless and low-income Veterans in Miami-Dade and Broward counties, and Practical Application of Intimate Relationship Skills (PAIRS) classes offered nationwide under the "PAIRS Essentials" and "Warrior to Soul Mate" brands helping couples overcome marital instability. Purpose Built Families Foundation is a nationally accredited nonprofit that evolved from PAIRS Foundation, tackling underlying causes of poverty, homelessness, incarceration, addiction and suicide.  

We talk about three relationship skills veterans can use to heal and grow; plus we talk about how Will Smith's reaction to Chris Rock's jokes was an example of "leakage"

You can find out more at https://www.purposebuiltfamilies.com/ and https://www.411veterans.com/.

On Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/ThePAIRSFoundation and YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/user/pairsusa.

Transcript

Cliff 00:00

Hey, thanks for joining us again on the Return to Base Podcast. Today’s episode is brought to you by Rugia [phonetic 00:6]. Today we have Seth Eisenberg. He’s the founder and CEO of purposebuiltfamilies.com and Warriors to Soulmates which can be found at w2sm.com.

This is Return to Base, a Veteran Live Podcast.

Welcome to Nashville! First of all.

Seth Eisenberg 00:49

Pleasure to be with you.

Cliff 00:50

And welcome to the studio, the home of veteranlife.com and the Return to Base Podcast. How was your flight?

Seth Eisenberg 00:57
It was great, really wonderful. It’s a little colder here. [crosstalk]

Cliff 01:02

We brought you up here. Out of Paradise is probably really hot already in Miami, right this time of year.

Seth Eisenberg 01:08

It’s perfect. It’s perfect, but Nashville is beautiful.

Cliff 01:11

Nashville is beautiful, but it’s not Miami beautiful. Let’s just be clear about that.

Seth Eisenberg 01:15

It’s not, but it’s a beautiful town. And thank you for bringing me here. I appreciate that.

Cliff 01:20

Glad to do it. You said that you did some sightseeing. You said you went to Vanderbilt and grab some stuff. What

Seth Eisenberg 01:28

I got to walk the campus.

Cliff 01:29

What’s the connection there?

Seth Eisenberg 01:31

Just having a few hours after my flight arrived. But seeing that the students they’re all look like my 12-year-old. [crosstalk]

Cliff 01:42

We got some prodigies out there.

Seth Eisenberg 01:43

Say that again.

Cliff 01:44

We got some prodigies out there. So everybody looks younger these days.

Seth Eisenberg 01:48

They are young. They are and it makes you realize how quickly life passes. And how lucky we are to still be here doing the work we love. And it makes a difference in the world.

Cliff 01:58

That’s right. Yes. And I think too many people actually walk through life. Without that understanding. We all just do, we do, we do whatever. There’s no like, why am I doing this? Which is unfortunate.

Seth Eisenberg 02:12

And that really goes to the foundation of so much that we’ve been talking about, which is what are the big dreams we have provided? And, you know, what our military families have in common is that they sacrifice so much for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for the, 80%, 85%, 90% of Americans who will never wear a uniform. But what does that mean for their own lives? How can they come home or returned to base or prepare for the next chapter of their lives? Where they have a real opportunity to make big dreams come true.

Cliff 02:48

Yeah, for sure. We’ll get into all that. I do want to know a little bit about your background. So this is obviously a podcast. And our website focuses on the Veteran community, we normally have Veteran guests. But oftentimes, we look to talk to military spouses and people who support the Veteran community.

So how did you get into this?

Be clear, you’re not a doctor, you’re not a clinical psychologist or therapist or whatever. But you have a passion for the Veteran community that you had said in our talk previously was inspired by your mother. Is that correct?

Seth Eisenberg 03:24

You know, it started, my mom fell in love with Lieutenant Colonel in the Marine Corps.

Cliff 03:28

Oh man! I’m sorry to hear that. I’m just kidding. It would have been better if it was the army. But

Seth Eisenberg 03:34

Well, when I was elementary school. I remember that time of my life. And I remember being so grateful to him, because at that time, he was the closest thing I knew to a dad. And he touched my life in some very meaningful ways. But I also saw sort of what happened in their relationship and the struggles he went through in his deployments to Vietnam. And one of the things that always stood out to me is that he felt a lot safer in Vietnam than he did coming home and facing the challenges of marriage and family that he felt like he had the skills, the tools and knowledge to navigate whatever he faced in war.

Cliff 04:22

Yes.

Seth Eisenberg 04:23

But he didn’t have anything to face the challenges at home. And so much of my mom’s life went on to helping military and Veteran families. Her offices were in Falls Church, Virginia, she was a marriage and family therapist. And what she found is that people were missing skills. And for the military community in particular, who learned skills to be the tip of the sword, you know, to prepare for operations are required in incredible courage and bravery. But they didn’t have the skills for the mission of their families, for raising their sons and daughters for intimacy, and it wasn’t that anything was broken or defective. It was just the thing how can you expect people to know what they never learned? Yeah, so she started teaching that. And she developed a program called Pairs [phonetic 05:18], which stands for practical application of intimate relationship skills.

Just a few minutes from the Pentagon, in Falls Church in actually in Alexandria, Virginia. And what we saw a number of years later hearing from people would become generals and admirals, that if it wasn’t for the skills they learned, not only when their families still be together, but they would have never succeeded to the extent they didn’t careers. But people don’t know what they don’t learn,

Cliff 05:47

Right.

Seth Eisenberg 05:48

And we do what we know, you know, the same as we put on whatever outfit we have in our closet. But when you teach people how to communicate, which is much more about listening than speaking, when you teach people skills for dealing with conflict and differences in ways that strengthen the relationship, which is the only winner [unintelligible 06:07] for the relationship wins, when you teach people to understand emotions in themselves and others.

And the skill is to find their own answers. So many miracles become possible. And then you can add lots of other things to it, you know, whether it’s medications, or groups or all the different therapies and processes that we as a culture and society have developed. But the foundation has the skills with the person you share your life with.

Cliff 06:36

Right.

Seth Eisenberg 06:37

And I got into it by seeing those miracles, you know, sitting as a youngster growing up, and hearing people talk about the impact it was having on their lives. In 2008, 2009. The Chaplains at the Charlie Norwood, VA in Augusta reached out and said that the impacts that we’re seeing on combat Veterans returning from deployments in Iraq and Afghanistan, the increases that we’re seeing in suicides, the exponential epidemic, they were seeing a marriage and family breakdown, that they needed a new approach.

And they asked me and our foundation to volunteer and said, you know, we don’t have a penny of funding. But we need help, and went up and did a retreat. Friday night, Saturday, Sunday for a group of about 30 combat Veterans and their spouses over Valentine’s Day weekend. And, you know, that was 2009. Even today, I’m still in touch with people that say that changed their entire life, that people Veterans who are kind of actively contemplating suicide-

Cliff 07:49

Oh, wow.

Seth Eisenberg 07:50

Got to a really good place, literally in minutes, that marriages that were on the brink of collapse, and families got to a really good place, not where people could just survive together, but where they were really happy together. And that wasn’t because me or anyone else came and told people the answers to their questions. It was because we gave people skills, really simple skills to find their own answers.

So over the years following we trained hundreds of VA professionals, primarily chaplains and behavioral health specialists across the country. And today, a Veteran can walk into almost any VA and say, How can I and my significant other wife husband, participate in Warrior to Soulmate, and if they don’t have it available, they should be able to put the Veteran in touch with someone who can make it available. We’ve also done extensive work with active duty military, particularly Navy and Marine Corps, where Navy chaplains are being trained to teach these skills to their sailors and marines, even during their deployments. So that for those who are in contact with their loved ones, or you know, because they’re together, or when they return home, they have skills for that mission in their life.

Cliff 09:14

Oh, that’s very interesting. The idea of it being a skill, I think it’s something that we don’t expect, per se. We think that these are just behaviors instead of skills. And you mentioned when people go off to combat or in the military, we have skills that we’ve acquired you know, we have battle drills for instance, we know what happens if we come across with a a near ambush or a far ambush or whatever scenario we have battle drills. Okay, I’m going to hit the deck and then I am going to lob [phonetic 09:53] grenades, return fire and kill off when people come back. It is an interesting dynamic when people come back, and they’re expected to drop those skills, they’ve been so switched on about battle drills. I assume that people continue battle drills with their relationships, conflict. Wife comes at you, if you just been home for a couple days or week, wife comes at you with maybe some financial thing or some conflict. And people react nearly the same way.

Hit the deck, throw some grenades, metaphorically speaking, of course, return fire, definitely metaphorical speaking. And then peel off. I think you could out kind of peel those back. And you can see those battle drills do relate to a lot of the toxic behavior that we do bring home throw grenades. Well, what about you? What have you been doing? Return fire? Yeah, well, how about this? And then shut off by peeling off. And that can’t be healthy, and we’ve all seen it. I know, plenty of relationships that didn’t last, through the redeployment process, who did, some who failed later, but let’s talk about some of the skills. And what do you think are the foundational skills that people need to have? You mentioned that it’s something pretty simple. What are those foundational skills that you think are important?

Seth Eisenberg 11:48

So it’s a triad.

Cliff 11:50

I like triads.

Seth Eisenberg 11:51

And the triads important? Because one of the three pieces without the other is not going to do a lot of good.

Cliff 11:59

Yes.

Seth Eisenberg 12:01

The Triad, the foundation of all of it as communication, which is about how do I make it safe, to create an environment where we can confide in each other, where you can be vulnerable. And what makes it safe for someone to be vulnerable is when the other person can respond with empathy. So the first set of skills really focuses on that. The second set of skills focuses on how do we deal with differences in ways that create greater closeness. So that instead of it being, you and me against each other, it’s you and me against whatever challenges we face. So that’s a whole set of skills that are very easy to learn. And the foundation may be of everything, is about understanding emotions in ourselves and others.

There’s nothing wrong with us. We’re not broken or defective. What we feel makes perfect sense, based on the experiences of our lives, how we interpreted those experiences, the meaning we gave those experiences, the same is true for everybody else that we share our lives with.

So being able to understand what we’re feeling, and having an environment where we can, instead of having that live inside, where ultimately the energy builds up, emotions have no sense of time. As I was talking about, you know, my mom’s history and growing up with Lieutenant Colonel, I could feel that, even though it’s 40 plus years ago, 50 plus years ago, I could still feel it.

So the intensity of those feelings builds up. And ultimately, one of the things you see is a lot of people who are just numb just on autopilot, just finding a way to make it from one day to the next. You know, and there’s a lot of industries that are built on sort of helping people live in their own prison, you know, where we don’t feel. You see people that leak, you know, become sarcastic or blame or judge or bully, and we weren’t born to be that way. That’s not a sign that we’re feeling anything good inside, but we’re treating other people that way. But eventually, the intensity of those feelings either implodes, and that’s the devastating horrific rate of Veteran suicides we say. Because when all those feelings build up, and they explode inside, you know that the first sign is just a general state of sadness.

You know, next state is depression ultimately, and suicide, or it explodes. And who do we explode on the people we’re closest to? That’s it we explode on. Yeah, sure we can yell at the person who p*ssed us off in traffic or took too long in the line. But ultimately, it’s the people we would give our lives to protect, that we had that bill too. Because when feelings explode outwardly, you know that, in the beginning, it may just be words, that can be very, very quickly turned to domestic violence.

One of the people who was very involved in creating the skills that we teach, had gone around the country interviewing murderers in prison, and what he found is that most of them had murdered someone they had loved. And that it was pre planned. It wasn’t that there was some, you know, it was in a split moment, they had done something so horrific that they could never take back. And he realized that nobody would be safe, if you didn’t give everybody skills to have that intensity, come out, instead of staying inside, and come out constructively, so that it was safe for the people we love.

The idea that those who served this country who do so much for my life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, and so many others, sacrifice their own. The idea that people that they prayed to come home to that they didn’t lose each other. You know, so many children whose mothers or fathers served, don’t get to grow up with those moms and dads, or don’t get to grow up in an environment that they could say, Wow, I’d really liked that. Have that be my life when I’m an adult when I fall in love one day.

Cliff 16:42

So when you create a Purpose Built Family, what year was that?

Seth Eisenberg 16:48

So the program’s pair started, for example, practical application [crosstalk] Yeah, that started in 1977.

Cliff 16:57

Okay.

Seth Eisenberg 16:58

It originally was a course at American University in Washington, and then she started to offer it through her practice. That is expanded into the VA significantly, starting in 2009, with the work with Charlie Norwood, and then 2018, 2019 When VA contracted with us to make this training available throughout the VA enterprise, so that it can be accessible to every Veteran.

Purpose Built Families integrated a number of different activities, including the work we do every day with Veterans who are homeless, or at risk of homelessness.

In South Florida one of our major programs separate from word to soulmate is our operation sacred trust Initiative, where we work with over 1000, homeless and at risk Veterans each year, in Miami-Dade and Broward County, what I shared with you earlier that when you think about the Veterans who are experiencing homelessness in this country, or the risk of homelessness, or those who tragically take their lives or have flags, suicide flags, the most common shared experience of that community is loss of close relationships. And that while we do so much to treat the symptoms, you know, repair homelessness, help people who have been suicidal not go through that. again.

As a society, if we could interrupt it by strengthening Veteran families, military families, by teaching this other skill set. That’s not difficult to learn. As I mentioned earlier, I’ve taught these skills to kids in preschool, kindergarteners.

Cliff 18:42

Do you find that a large population of the homeless people in the community that you serve has maybe the nexus of their issues are family based, like something broke down within their family, and then they felt that they were hopeless for…?

Seth Eisenberg 19:06

It’s the most common shared experience when the Veterans who reach out to us what they have in common is first of all, they almost all lost close relationships, whether that was with parents or spouses or others. That’s the most common shared experience.

The second thing is they don’t have anyone to fall back on. You know [crosstalk]

Cliff 19:29

They burned some bridges.

Seth Eisenberg 19:31

Yeah, because of exactly what you’re talking about before that they did what they knew that they use the skill to do it, help them stay alive, help them survive for another aspect of their life. And those skills didn’t make sense in that environment. Those aren’t skills to develop intimacy. Those aren’t skills to be a great mother or father. Doesn’t mean that there aren’t aspects of that training that are invaluable for anybody’s life, but when it comes to the mission of intimacy, when it comes to creating an environment where it’s safe to be vulnerable, and where we can respond with empathy to others, when it comes to creating a life, where instead of turning off our emotions as you… I think many people in the military, the idea is you’re not supposed to feel anything. That moment that you pause to feel can be deadly for you or somebody else. But when you’re a mom, or a dad, or husband or a wife, that’s an entirely different mission. You got to turn on feelings, you know, you got to be aware of feelings in yourself and others.

Cliff 20:39

Yeah, you’re right. There is a element of apathy, in a sense that you almost have to carry with you if you’re going to go do horrible things to even arguably horrible people. Combat… It does, you know, good sometimes to think, to be empathetic, right? Empathy could be one of those things that people feel could get you killed or on the battlefield. But the battlefield is not that here in your family, in your homies or shouldn’t be. When you move back up, when your mother has started pears, did it focus at first on the homeless population? Or was that just a happy?

Seth Eisenberg 21:40

[crosstalk] When pears started, it was for wealthy people in the suburbs, because it was 120-hour course led by a mental health professional. So typically, it was for people who had 120 hours available, and who could spend 1000s of dollars to participate. So there were members of Congress that were leaders of various professions, there have been billionaires who are you know, household names who have participated in various classes over the years, my challenge was how to take the parts that made the greatest impact, and make that available Broadway. So that instead of it just being available to those who could pay 1000s of dollars, it could be available to anyone, anywhere, anytime.

So Warrior to Soulmate, for example, is nine to 12 hours, that can be delivered online, it can be delivered over multiple weeks, it can be delivered in intensive weekend, so that the skills could be available to anyone. And the Veteran community has been a particular focus, because of how our society has been affected by Afghanistan and Iraq, you know, and originally, much the brought us together to serve the post 911 generation also woke us up to the challenges that we still saw from Vietnam-era Veterans who were struggling. And they came back to very different society than our post 9/11 Veterans returned to.

Cliff 23:12

Yeah, absolutely.

Seth Eisenberg 23:13

And they are still paying the price. I can guarantee you that there are Vietnam-era Veterans who will be homeless in Nashville tonight. And in Miami, and [unintelligible 23:24] Los Angeles. Because the consequences are ongoing. And thank goodness as communities as a society, we’ve done better for our post 9/11 Veterans, but we still need to do better, and we can do better. And what we’re talking about goes to the foundation of that, that if we can help our military and Veteran community, strengthen their closest relationships, not by having them turned to a third party, but teaching them how to turn to the people that are closest to. How do you do this with the person you wake up with?

Cliff 23:58

Yes.

Seth Eisenberg 23:59

You don’t have to make an appointment. Some couples do.

Cliff 24:04

Some do.

Seth Eisenberg 24:05

There’s no wait time. You know, it doesn’t depend on which insurance you’re using. But how do you teach those skills so that every person who has sacrificed for this country has the best chance for that life, liberty and pursuit of happiness in their own lives?

Cliff 24:22

Do you feel that the Veteran communities are different generationally? Meaning the Veterans of Vietnam for instance, had their own challenges. reintegration was one of them. More or less the Veterans of the global war on terror were welcomed back with a first really open arms but quickly follow to– I didn’t know that you guys are still over there. So I don’t know what you call that public apathy or honestly, public ignorance. But do you feel that those two communities are different?

Seth Eisenberg 25:06

Their shared experiences are different. The experience of Veterans who served in Vietnam, went through when they returned home was very different than the post 9/11 generation. Many of the Veterans I’ve worked with over the years were deeply impacted by the experience of returning home. But that was also unique to different Veterans, black Veterans experienced that differently than white Veterans, Veterans in the south experienced that differently than Veterans in other parts of the country.

There are many different factors that influenced how each person experienced, you know, even very similar events in their lives. And part of our work is the idea that everybody’s unique. Yes, we have shared experiences. And yes, we speak a common language. And yes, people who have been through, you know, certain training, have a lot of similarities. But the dreams, the values that light each of us up, what it means to follow your bliss, you know, what the big dreams are that you want to bring to life that’s unique to each of us? And one of the things we’ve seen over and over nobody has a magic wand to change what’s already happened.

Cliff 26:26

Yeah.

Seth Eisenberg 26:28

It’s not out there. The question is, what are we going to do with this moment. And with the time we have going forward, I was mentioning to you earlier that one in work I did with a 101st airborne. Also background 2009, as many of them were preparing for their 3rd fourth deployment was an exercise called a Meditation on Death and Loss, where they actually have a chance to be guided through conversations with their loved one that I would say that very few people ever have. And so often we’re left with I wish I would have said this, or I would have said that, or I wish we had talked about this.

So what we do is very intentionally create the environment for people to have conversations that matter. So we know that each day is a gift. And also, nobody ever knows what tomorrow will bring, whether someone’s deployed, or whether someone’s crossing the street, or whether we’re facing a once in 100-year pandemic, there’s no promise of tomorrow, but skills to help people make the most of today for whatever their dreams are with whoever they share their life with. That certainly does make a difference.

Cliff 27:48

Interesting. So we’ve talked, I think we’ve kind of gone through the line of some of the people you’re working with are definitely active duty returning from deployment, still active duty or even preparing to deploy. Right?

Have you discovered challenges with or have you had experiences with people who maybe haven’t even been to combat, so there’s a lot of people in the service now, believe it or not, who haven’t seen combat once in combat, but will still transition into the civilian world. And this is primarily the audience that we talked to as people who have transitioned in Civil War, whether or not they’ve seen combat or not, but the process of transitioning back into the military is, can be traumatic for some folks and can be traumatic for people’s relationship as well. And what experience have you had with those individuals who, again, maybe self-combat or maybe not, but are now ending their service, and now expected to be this civilian?

Seth Eisenberg 29:04

So the question is, what’s your mission? And what skills do you have to help you succeed in that mission? So if your mission is; I want to build a family in Nashville what are the skills that are going to help me succeed? If the mission is I want to be an entrepreneur in Miami? What are the skills that are going to help me succeed? But helping people recognize that there’s much from their military training that can be helpful for the rest of their lives? But which of those skills are going to help them in whatever their mission is at this chapter in their life? And how do they embrace the skills that make sense for this mission? How do they let go of those that don’t make sense for this mission? And how can they learn knows that they may be missing? You know, and often those are skills to strengthen interpersonal relationships, which are very, very different than the skills to prepare someone for battle, maybe the exact opposite.

So, in the years that we’ve been doing this work, we’ve seen everything. There is not a question you could ask me about, have you seen this, that we haven’t seen. But what we see repeatedly is that when people can learn skills to deepen, enhance communication, to deal with problems, so that they don’t lose each other, to understand their emotions, and emotions, and others, they can create whatever they want to in life, and have a much better chance of succeeding than when they can’t do that.

Cliff 30:45

Do you feel like people are open to these skills? Or do you find some resistance to people, you know, being open to being vulnerable, for instance.

Seth Eisenberg 31:00

So that’s a big part of why I came to Nashville when you offer the opportunity. Because one of the biggest challenges we have as a society is normalizing the experiences that we go through as human beings. What people find very quickly when they attend classes, is they realize that there’s nothing wrong with them, that the experience they’re having isn’t that different than the experience of person, two tables over, two seats over.

But we live in a world where everybody thinks that what’s happening to them that somehow we have to keep it secret that we have to put on a mask, that everything’s okay, when it’s not that everything feels a certain way when it doesn’t. And a really important part of the work that we’re doing that you’re doing is normalizing that it’s okay. It makes perfect sense to go through what people are going through, to feel what they’re feeling.

But there are options available for how we deal with that. And yes, it can take courage, one of the things that stands out with working with the military and Veteran community, is the courage is already there. You don’t have to wonder if this is someone who has the ability to be courageous and brave, every single military and Veteran that I’ve ever worked with, as enormous capacity to be courageous and brave. But it’s bringing that courage to a different aspect of their life. And for some, you know, it’s one thing the courage to sort of be an attack [phonetic 32:38], like a turtle with a big tough shell, to keep us protected from everything. It’s a different level of courage to be able to step out of that tech, and to be vulnerable. But that’s the courage it takes and the work you’re doing is really important, helping people have that courage.

Cliff 32:59

Appreciate that. And obviously, we appreciate the work that you’re doing, especially for military Veterans, but also military spouses and such, who initiates contact with you,

Seth Eisenberg 33:13

Anybody.

Cliff 33:14

I mean, generally speaking, do you find that it’s the service member or the Veteran? Or is it the service member being dragged along by their concern spouse? Or is there even some parental relationships that you wake up?

Seth Eisenberg 33:29

First of all, it’s all of the above. But what’s really important is that the military and Veteran community know that there’s help available, that whether someone calls the VA crisis line, or any of the other resources that somebody can find from going on the internet and searching, that people reach out, the idea that so many people suffer silently.

You know, I think that it’s rare that I’ve met someone from the military or Veteran community who hasn’t lost someone that they cared deeply about. And I wish we had a magic wand that could change what’s already happened, and we don’t. But what we do have is the ability to embrace our own lives, to live our lives, to embrace our dreams, to be closer to the people we share our lives with, to do the things that we have the opportunity to do, because of the sacrifices that so many others have made.

And in my mind, when I think about the courage and sacrifice of our military community, and the freedoms we have, it’s a daily reminder, to embrace that, to live that to value that and that’s very different than sort of suffering silently, you know, day after day, decade after decade. Yeah, people can survive that way. But that’s a very different experience that really racing life.

Cliff 35:00

Yeah.

Seth Eisenberg 35:01

So who can call, who can reach out? Anybody can reach out? You know, whether it’s soldier, sailor, or Marine, or their spouse or family member who can say, you know, tell me more, you know, how can we participate? We deliver these skills online. You know, right now as we’re speaking, there’s a class just starting with people from around the country, often people from around the world, or somebody can reach out to a local VA medical center and say, what can you do to help strengthen my connection with the people I share my wife with? Typically, my husband, wife?

Cliff 35:46

Yeah. Have you dealt with the prevailing military? Maybe it’s not so much anymore, but there had been a prevailing military attitude of, you know, hey, suck it up, buddy. And I’ll say, as far as PTSD, this war started, the global war on terror started with when it started, people didn’t understand PTSD. And we often looked at people who claimed PTSD as being cowards. Or maybe they’re just crazy. Or, hey, that’s that guy. That’s not me. We also looked at people who– We would judge our experiences against other people and say, what do they have to be affected by? What trauma did they go through?

They didn’t, they sat on a fob all day, and how could they have PTSD? But have you ran into some of those attitudes with, hey, you know, there’s nothing wrong with me, or, you know, I’m going to get over this, or something similar. There’s got to be that there’s this persona, that we project, you set a mask, there’s a mask that we wear, and thankfully, I think, it’s come off a bit over the last decade or so it’s become widely more accepted that PTSD is definitely real. And then many times, is accompanied by actual physical trauma to the brain, things like that. But have you seen that?

Cliff 37:37

Tell me about some of your experiences with that, if you can tell me specifically about like, an instance, you’d be general, obviously. But about a time where were you dealt with that?

Seth Eisenberg 37:51

Well, first of all, the greatest generation was also perhaps the most silent generation, right? One of the first things I’ll ask Veterans as they come from a military family. Did they grow up with an example of what that looks like? Because we know that many people were raised by, particularly dads, who had very different rules for what they shared, how they dealt with emotions. We often pass that down generationally, some people gamble, some people drink, some people turn to all kinds of medications, some people disappear into their careers. There are all kinds of ways that people deal with trauma. And often, whatever we saw our parents do become, you know, one of the first options that’s available to us.

So if we grew up in a home, where the message was suck it up. Big boys don’t cry. Don’t rock the boat.

Cliff 38:56

Don’t rub it.

Seth Eisenberg 38:57

You know, I’ve got enough to worry about without your stuff. Then what we’re going to do is we’re going to stop it in more and more and more. And that’s why we often pass down the legacy of depression, of suicide, of domestic violence, alcoholism, and drug abuse, because we learned these things, from the choices our parents and the other people around us made.

So today, people are much more aware of the price they pay for that. The impact. There’s been enormous research since the time of World War 2, and Korea and Vietnam, about the impact that dealing with things in those ways has and the multi-generational impact of those decisions.

So we’re much more informed society today. And trauma comes from a lot of places. And you know, maybe one day we’ll have a better understanding what’s woven into our DNA, and how that shows up, you know, they’ve just started to that, we’re at the very beginning of understanding how each of us are wired, we have some understanding of how the events of our life influence, how we react to what happens. What we’re only beginning at the very beginning of starting to look at is how our DNA carries the emotional experiences of previous generations.

You know, some of the most fascinating research shows that trauma, prior to birth, alters our DNA. And I certainly expect that in the years ahead, we’ll have a much deeper understanding of why two different people who go through very similar experiences have two completely different reactions, and what is it both from their experience of life, and perhaps even the way their DNA is formed that impacted the way they’re reacting in the present.

But whatever we discover, in these laboratories, none of it changes what’s already happened. There’s no magic wand that’s going to come out of all of this research, that’s going to say that what happened yesterday or a decade ago, didn’t happen.

At the end of every one of those studies will be the same question. What do we do today? How are we going to make the most of the opportunities we have? And the very foundation of that today, yesterday, and I suspect for many tomorrow’s to come will be our closest relationships, that people we wake up with the people that we create our own little islands with, in this world of billions that we choose to share our life with, and how things go in that island will really impact more than anything else. What life liberty and the pursuit of happiness looks like, what our lives look like, what the dreams are that we bring to life, you know, for those of us who become parents, what we see in our children as they grow up into adults, and ultimately our grandchildren.

Cliff 42:31

Interesting. Little off topic, what would you have to say to Will Smith today?

Seth Eisenberg 42:39

You know, that’s a sign of someone leaking. You know, I talked earlier about when you’re holding in intense feelings that we can either input or exploit and [crosstalk 42:52] We hand the bill to whoever’s there. When somebody’s feelings have built up to a moment, to a point where anything can set somebody off, not because of what happened but because of all the energy that’s just waiting and look it, you know, God protect you, if you happen to be across from somebody who’s ready to explode. Yeah. So what the world saw was, Will Smith was somebody who was ready to explode.

Cliff 43:23

Yes, and for the listener out there we’re filming this on the Tuesday after that. It takes, obviously, [unintelligible 43:32] time so. So you’re saying what the world saw was…

Seth Eisenberg 43:34

What the world saw was somebody who was explosive. And the moment he had an excuse, for all that energy to come out. It came out against Chris Rock. He handed Chris Rock the bill through that slap that was heard across the world.

Cliff 43:53

Chris Rock took it like a champ, though? I’ll tell you what.

Seth Eisenberg 43:57

[crosstalk] The intention. And, you know, I was talking to you earlier about one of the skills we teach is called Emptying the Emotional Jug. Which I can assure you that if Will Smith had emptied his emotional jug. That would not have happened.

Cliff 44:16

Yeah. Now he has to deal with these consequences. You know, it’s funny, nobody would have even remembered the joke. Had he not leaked, right, as you said, right?

Seth Eisenberg 44:26

But there’s a message in that for everybody. Because often our lives you look at Will Smith, who has had extraordinary success, hard work, but there’s a really good chance that the rest of his life and his legacy for generations will come down to them a decision he made in a nanosecond, about how he was going to react. And despite all his incredible contributions to the world, that nanosecond may define him forever. And the same is true for each of us, and you want to give yourself the very best chance of acting in a way that fits through wherever you are in the world. And that’s something each of us gets to decide.

Cliff 45:13

Yeah. Obviously, he’s tremendously hard working. He’s a good person. I hope he recovers from it. And I hope he gets help dealing with whatever he’s dealing with. It doesn’t help that they keep give their personal life all over like YouTube or something. I think they got like some, some show where they just lay it all out. But it’s interesting. There’s to be some bottled rage. Keep in the vein of current events. Have you worked with people from other countries? I know that we get people here who are refugees from Afghanistan, from Iraq, and they’ve grown up quite different, in many circumstances, quite difficult either, while they’re grown up or during their formative years, and now, we can predict that there’s going to be an influx, eventually, probably Ukrainian citizens, who had been through very traumatic things and are you thinking forward about how you would deal with people from a different culture?

Seth Eisenberg 46:30

You know, we’ve worked… One of the founding chairperson of Paris was a woman named Virginia Satir. And she was considered to be the mother of family therapy, and really created the whole field of humanistic psychology. And she spoke often about traveling around the world and doing this work in dozens of countries, maybe more. And that what you found is that wherever she went, people’s hearts were in exactly the same place, no matter what color their skin, no matter what language they spoke, no matter the culture they grew up in, their hearts were always in exactly the same place. And I have very much seen the same thing. And I’ve worked with people from many different countries, I had the opportunity to do work in Israel after one of the wars with Lebanon, where Jewish and Muslim communities were impacted.

And to do work, bringing Jewish and Muslim, Israelis and Christians together, and teaching them the same skills that we teach to couples,

Cliff 47:34

Interesting.

Seth Eisenberg 47:35

And seeing the impact. It was unbelievable to watch community relationships, that when people, whether it begins at home, but it extends to our community, to our country, to our world, when we as human beings, can create an environment where it’s safe for other people to be vulnerable, whether that’s beginning with our spouse and children but extending to our neighbors, and even people that, you know, might have very different values than we do to share their truth, you know, what their experience, how do they see things empathy, and to respond with empathy.

Bullseye! All kinds of different possibilities become available to us. But it begins with how do you create an environment where people can be vulnerable with each other? And how do you train people to incentive responding with, let me tell you what I think or let me fix it, or let me judge it. But just to respond with empathy for that other person’s experience. Everything becomes possible from that.

Cliff 48:42

Yeah, a little bit of stepping into somebody’s shoes goes a long way. You know, in my experience, being sometimes in people’s houses, uninvited in other countries, you know, you’re there to do a job. And you’re supposed to look big and mean, and move violently. But you see, the families who are affected in here, say, you know, you take pity on them a bit, you understand why you’re in that situation, why they’re in this situation, but do you also understand like, or hope everybody understands, everybody who’s been in a house uninvited, like I had been, that these are just human beings on the other end. And by the way, even the enemy is human being.

We can close with the enemy, and we can destroy the enemy. But I think it’s important to sometimes take that bit of training and that bit of conditioning outside of it and realize, yes, there’s another human being at the end of this barrel. And often you see that with, when people capitulate or become prisoners of war, and some said they, they’re either treated well, or they’re treated horribly. Right? And I don’t know if that’s just, it’s definitely what was never trained. It’s not something they said, hey, when you find POWs or something, treat them with the utmost respect. It’s like, be cautious.

Seth Eisenberg 50:23

I know you’ve had some conversations about moral injury, about guilt, about shame. Again, nobody can change what’s already happened. And we live in a world where it’s a dangerous world. There’s real evil out there, and our military and Veteran community understands that ways of most of their neighbors do not. And there’s a different mission when somebody transitions out.

Cliff 50:55

Yeah. Well, people carry that moral injury, though, or even that shame, like you said, in quite frankly, there are things that people in the military or who are Veterans just cannot talk about, with their spouses, or sometimes with their friends or a therapist, or, you know, there’s things that people have done maybe, where for one reason or another, it’s something that they want to, they want to confess, I think I was speaking to Dr. Bessel. Vander Kolk, about this very issue, and asked like dude this is do you lay it on the table? Or do you carry it with you? And surprisingly, he was like, it does no good sometimes to implicate yourself, and something that maybe it’s a very touchy subject, right,

Seth Eisenberg 52:00

You can release the energy of healings [phonetic 52:02] without the details.

Cliff 52:04

Yeah. How do you do that? Explain?

Seth Eisenberg 52:06

Well, you know, there’s some very specific exercises that people can learn for releasing emotional energy. For some people, it’s because you’re aware of what’s connected, what that’s connected to, but your ability to do what you just did. And imagine that growing exponentially aware of the feelings that are inside, that are connected to that sound that you made. Imagine then being held by a loved one afterward. Imagine the healing that could come after that expression, and that release for you, that your wife holds you. And that you can be aware of the miracle of these [crosstalk]

Cliff 52:54

Transference is that we’re talking about [crosstalk]

Seth Eisenberg 52:57

I’m talking about healing.

Cliff 52:59

Okay, so the screaming [phonetic 53:01] but it is me releasing [crosstalk] instead of burdening somebody else with it.

Seth Eisenberg 53:07

The key is that you don’t call it inside?

Cliff 53:10

Got it. Yes.

Seth Eisenberg 53:11

And that you give the people who are your closest to a chance to be healing. You don’t have to share details to release the energy. There are lots of different techniques for releasing that energy. For the most complex, there’s a lot of professional help available through the VA and through other organizations. But the VA certainly has enormous experience with this, to help people release that energy so it doesn’t live inside them. But the question is, then how do you give your spouse the opportunity to be healing to you? How do you take the new possibilities that are there because you’re not carrying that around? And make that into the best chance to have whatever your dreams are come true. But moral injury is something that we’ve learned a lot about as society. I don’t think those words were even spoken together for prior generations of warriors.

Cliff 54:12

Explain moral injury for those listeners who might not be…

Seth Eisenberg 54:15

You know, I think, it’s still relatively new in your podcast, you talked about it, you know, it could be for one person that were flooded with feelings of guilt or shame, because of actions that we’ve taken, when you talked a moment ago about being an uninvited guest. If that violated your basic ideas of morality, and you’re carrying that around with you, the feelings of that moment, and that event, that can very much lead to moral injury, that could affect you for the rest of your life if you keep those feelings inside. You know, ultimately when I talked about that triad [phonetic 54:55] of communication, emotional understanding conflict resolution, it’s about not keeping that inside, whatever that is, if that’s related to moral injury, if it’s related to kill, if it’s related to shame. If it’s related to trauma, however, that showed up for you in your life, how do you create a life where that doesn’t have to live inside you? Where you don’t have to hand the bill for that-

Cliff 55:20

To Chris Rock?

Seth Eisenberg 55:23

To Chris Rock.

Cliff 55:25

Chris Rock, going to be a metaphor for[laughter]

Seth Eisenberg 55:30

Actually, it’s Will [phonetic 55:30], Chris just took it. Imagine heading out [phonetic 555:33] and imagine if you decide to swing back.

Cliff 55:38

I’m a little bit surprised that they didn’t Usher Mr. Smith off out of the building. But yeah, I mean, it was…

Seth Eisenberg 55:48

[crosstalk] [unintelligible] broadcasts can show somebody assault, somebody else, and then be presented with the highest award of the industry. Moments later. And then they, you know that what we hear is that, well, they didn’t have a chance to get together and figure out what to do, or the Chris decided not to prosecute. Unfortunately, a lot of people will see that and decide it’s okay to hit other people.

Cliff 56:14

I agree. Actually, I wonder that is, like, what message does that send. I mean, on one hand, you have the argument that people are making, that he stood up for his woman. And then on the other hand, it’s he still sold to somebody. And then I heard somebody else say, I don’t know if you know who Marcellus Wiley is, if you follow football, he was on the Chargers [phonetic 56:39]. Now, he’s like a talking head somewhere. But he talks a bit, and he’s pretty smart guy. But he said he wouldn’t have had to take up for his wife if he had taken care of his wife. I was like, wow, that seems pretty deep, because they have some other stuff going on. I don’t want to go too far down.

Seth Eisenberg 57:01

But actually what you’re saying it’s very easy to get distracted by other people’s lives.

Cliff 57:06

Yes.

Seth Eisenberg 57:06

When we’re teaching about communicate, one of the first things we learned is what does it mean to level with the people you’re closest to? And what are the ways that we keep from [unintelligible 57:15] And one of those ways is by finding everything in the world besides our own relationship. And we focus on that. So Will Smith gives us a great, and Chris Rock.

Cliff 57:27

[crosstalk] That’s him, not [crosstalk]

Seth Eisenberg 57:30

Whether it’s them, or whether it’s, you know, the Clintons from yours. [crosstalk] you name or whether it’s a neighbor down this [crosstalk] Those are always and not having to look at ourselves, and not having to deal with what’s right in front of us. Because we can talk about them. And yeah, they all have their challenges. And they all have their lessons to learn.

Cliff 57:52

So obviously, you know, there’s this video, this particular podcast, this episode is sponsored by by [unintelligible 58:02], one of our partners, and their focus really is on the physical intimacy aspect. And you had mentioned before this, sometimes people go down the road of having to take pills and stuff for, you know, I think we’re talking about things like Xanax and I don’t know, all those other ones that– I don’t know the words to. But there’s a chemical aspect of it too, right? And I think that companies like this, do serve a purpose, for sure, in so much that physical intimacy is part of a relationship. That is very important.

Seth Eisenberg 58:51

Absolutely. One of the most interesting things we’ve learned… Years ago, we got to spend 5 years doing research on the impact of this brief skills training approach, and how that showed up 6 months later, a year later, 2 years later, etc. And even though in this brief adaptation in these nine to 12 hours, we don’t deal with sex, then what we found is that when you open the lines of communication, when you help people learn to solve problems and differences in ways that bring them together, when you deepen emotional understanding, their sexual satisfaction was going up dramatically, and including their ability to reach out for help.

You know, there are many situations for lots of different reasons that people will reach out to your sponsor, or others that have various products. But when you can build that on a foundation from a healthy relationship with two people who have the skills that we talked about, that’s a very different experience than trying to solve it medically. Without first building the foundation to give yourself the best chance of Success.

Cliff 1:00:00

Yeah, I think you’re right. So intimacy is, in this context, intimacy is not just the emotional connection. But again, like I said, chemically, sometimes things need a little Jumpstart. Right?

Seth Eisenberg 1:00:17
Absolutely.

Cliff 1:00:18

And I think that we’re at a place. I mean, imagine this. After Vietnam, after World War-2 Korea, people had these issues, but they didn’t have a product out there, for instance, that helped jumpstart the car, so to speak, right? I assume that, because we have this ability now, that this could be a good part of the therapy for, and I’m not advocating that oh, this is a formula that we use, like, Okay, we’re going to get you treated emotionally, we’re going to make sure you’re connecting. And then we’re going to say, Hey, do you need these, but if you do need them, they’re here, right? Because there had to been several generations of people who dealt with these issues, and then had to deal with the shame of not being able to perform physically.

Seth Eisenberg 1:01:20

We’re a connected world. And not that long ago, you’d have to go to a library or research institute didn’t even have any idea today, you can go online, publicly or privately.

Cliff 1:01:33

A lot of people might have thought that what’s wrong with me? Am I the only one who’s dealing with this?

Seth Eisenberg 1:01:37

And that is one of the most common things that people go through is thinking that whatever is happening to them, is because they’re somehow broken, defective or inadequate, and then they recognize that other people who went through similar experiences had similar symptoms, and it has happened to them. But when you can build on a relationship between two people who are close and connected, that’s very meaningful. I mean, as a species, we have certain biologically based needs that we know about, we know we need to eat, we know we need air, we know we need liquid, we need bonding. We need that from birth until the end of life. And when, for whatever reason, our need for bonding, which is about emotional closeness, and physical closeness, that bonding is a unique combination of those two aspects.

Emotional openness is actually a better way to say it with physical closeness. When you have that you can experience deep intimacy. And there are lots of treatments available that can help people who, for whatever reason, have challenges. But the work that we do really focuses on the emotional part, how do you create an environment with that emotional connection, so that you can build on that, so that you’re not hugging the tree? You know, so that you really are able to fully embrace and connect with another human being?

Cliff 1:03:08

Yeah, for sure. When you deal with switching from that a little bit, but in your current work, do also do family therapy together like kids, wife, mother in law’s even.

Seth Eisenberg 1:03:29

We’re not therapists. You know, many therapists integrate the skills, they learn in our training, into therapy. And many of those who go through our training, use those same skills to strengthen their connection with their children, and other people in their lives. Once someone knows how to open the lines of communication, once they’re able to listen with empathy, and create an environment where other people are more likely to be vulnerable. That becomes available for all their relationships.

When someone knows how to deal with differences in ways where it’s you and me against the problem, that you and me against each other. They can bring that to all their relationships, once someone starts to understand how emotions work, the basics, you don’t have to be a PhD in emotional understanding, but the basics of how emotions work in ourselves and others we bring that to all of our relationships. And that makes a difference in all of our relationships.

Cliff 1:04:31

Yeah. What do you think are the… if you had to pick three things that every Veteran needs to be doing right now, regardless of whether they’re currently experiencing issues with their relationships?

Seth Eisenberg 1:04:45

Learn skills for the mission that matters to you.

Cliff 1:04:49

Okay, learn skills for missions that matters to you.

Seth Eisenberg 1:04:53

So whatever that mission is, if it’s being a great mom or dad, learn the skills By doing that, by trial and error comes with huge consequences. We often have other people, people who would give our lives for pay the price.

So the things that really matter, just doing it by trial and error and doing our best, it sorts of goes to that one of my favorite Mother Teresa quotes;

“Prayer without action is no prayer at all.”

So once somebody’s aware of what the mission is, that really speaks to them, whether it’s being a great mom or dad, or being building an amazing family, or creating a team that’s going to bring something new to life, learn the skills, that will give you the best chance of succeeding in whatever that dream is. And if you already have those skills, wonderful, if you have some of them, wonderful. If they’re skills you’ve learned that don’t fit, you can be really grateful that those skills helped you survive. They made it possible for you to be here for a new dream, and a new challenge. But don’t bring the wrong skills to do a different mission. So that would be the first thing.

Second of all, recognize what I say. There is not a moment I don’t think about Veteran suicide. Not a moment. Every time our phone rings, every time someone texts or emails, I have to assume that, that person is contemplating suicide. The idea that we continue to live in a society where people are keeping intense emotions inside has to change. We pay too high a price. So whether somebody learns the skills that we teach, or they go to a local VA, for help, holding intense emotions inside comes at too high [phonetic 01:06:59] a price.

Ultimately, we will either implode or explode. Imploding is sadness, depression, and suicide. Exploiting is hurting the people that we would often give our lives to protect. So that’s not an option to keep all of that inside. So I would second from, you know, have the skills for the mission at hand, not for a prior mission, but for the mission you’re embracing now. At the same time, don’t hold that intensity inside, it will either kill you, or threaten somebody you love. And that’s just to high price.

Cliff 1:07:39

Yeah.

Seth Eisenberg 1:07:40

And third of all, embrace community. You know, whether that community is your family, your neighborhood, your buddies, whatever it is, we are meant to connect. It’s wired into our DNA; it shows up in different ways. And some of us are introverts, and some are extroverts and all of that. But we are meant to connect, whether it’s with one person or 10 people, we are meant to connect. So find a community that’s inspired and lit up by the same values and dreams that speak to you. And connect with those people learn from each other, support each other.

Cliff 1:08:19

Yeah, those are all, I think things that people can easily implement, which is good. We have this acronym in the military keep it simple, stupid. What’s next for you and for the work that you’re doing?

Seth Eisenberg 1:08:37

So we’re looking at how we can do a better job with Veterans who are reentering from incarceration.

Cliff 1:08:44

Interesting.

Seth Eisenberg 1:08:45

That one of our major concern is that too often Veterans who have been incarcerated, often because of the same types of challenges we talked about.

Cliff 1:08:56

They leaked.

Seth Eisenberg 1:08:57

They leak, they implode, they explode. And there are many 1000s, we have, you know, probably 7000, 8000 Veterans in jail, in prison in Florida today. And we want to do a better job. Making sure that day one, when they come out of prison is the beginning of a very different life, and a very different chapter. And we’re spending some time looking at how can we as a society, in a community, do a better job of helping Veterans who have gotten, for whatever reason, caught up in the criminal justice system had the best chance of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness from their first day out.

So that’s a big part of what we’re focused on today. And continuing to improve the work we’re doing, not just ending Veteran homelessness, but preventing it to begin with, not just reducing Veteran suicides, but interrupting the factors that contribute to it. So that instead of as a society that’s always focusing on the symptoms that we’re actually getting underneath and addressing some of the causes that we’ve known about for decades.

Cliff 1:10:12

Yeah. I assume a lot of the Veterans you’re speaking of have some chemical dependencies as well. Illegal, illicit drugs.

Seth Eisenberg 1:10:24

When people are in pain they choose from what’s available.

Cliff 1:10:26

Yes.

Seth Eisenberg 1:10:27

Some people disappear into their careers. Other people disappear into the internet, other people disappear into prescription drugs, other legal or illegal, people choose from what’s available.

Cliff 1:10:39

Yes.

Seth Eisenberg 1:10:40

What they all have in common is people don’t want to be in pain. So as humans, we’re programmed to find a way to feel better. And we live in a society where millions of people are self-medicating every day.

Cliff 1:10:52

Wow, yes.

Seth Eisenberg 1:10:53

Not because there’s something fundamentally wrong with that. But because they’re trying to feel better. So we need to do a better job of helping address that. So that people don’t have to suffer silently, so that they don’t have to just survive, but they can actually embrace life and the dreams they have.

Cliff 1:11:15

So Seth, Purpose Built Families can be found a purpose built– purposebuiltfamilies.com. We have Warriors to Soulmates, W2sm.com. You guys have been fortunate enough to be funded by the contributions from the Veterans Affairs.

Seth Eisenberg 1:11:37

I’ve been very fortunate to receive funding from the US Department of Veterans Affairs, very, very grateful, which enables us to help 1000s of Veterans. We’re very grateful to the Department of Veterans Affairs, for investing in the warrior soulmate program, and doing their very best through chaplaincy, and through social work, to make that training available to Veteran families across the country. And any military family can reach out to us directly. And we will either provide resources or refer people to resources so that they can have access to these same skills.

Cliff 1:12:14

Right. And though you are funded by the Department of Veteran Affairs, you are a 501 C and if there’s any big wigs out there with deep pockets, I’m sure this cause is something worthy of investment.

Seth Eisenberg 1:12:30

We can help transform communities, we can help communities better address underlying factors, so that we’re not simply always responding to the symptoms. And lives are at stake. If there are people watching or inspired. We really would encourage them to reach out so we can talk about what we can do together.

Cliff 1:12:53

Do you take volunteers too, have events and things like that we…?

Seth Eisenberg 1:12:58

We’re in South Florida, we’re standing up an after-hours program that is significantly manned by volunteers. So if you’re part of the Veteran community in South Florida, Broward or Miami Dade County, please reach out, give us a call. Go to our website, purposebuiltfamilies.com and reach out we’d love to have your help.

Cliff 1:13:20

Awesome. Well, Seth, I really appreciate you joining us on The Return to Base Podcast. Thank you for the work that you have done and you continue to do. It’s important stuff out there. People are hurting all over the country, obviously. And we have Veterans who are returning from combat or had been in combat and who are transitioning from the military into the civilian world. I did it recently wasn’t an easy task. I was lucky enough to come out on the other end of it. Okay. Some people aren’t as lucky.

And for those who feel like they need help, or you don’t even have to be desperate, you don’t have to be at the end of your rope. You just initiate the conversation because it’s important thing to do. I recommend that you go to purposebuiltfamilies.com or W2sm.com. Let’s talk about the distinction real quick. If I wanted if I went to purposebuiltfamilies.com It would be more specifically for versus w2sm.

Seth Eisenberg 1:14:27

So our main focus on direct services is the homeless and at-risk of homeless community and Veterans in South Florida. The pair skills training is primarily through VA professionals across the country. So when someone goes to purpose, both families they can figure out which direction you want to go to and what assistance is there or maybe it’s both they’d like to access when someone goes to w2sm. It’s specifically focused on the VA warrior soulmate program. One that we created and that we’re happy to support every day.

Cliff 1:15:04

Awesome. Well, again, appreciate it and thank you for coming out to the beautiful city.

Seth Eisenberg 1:15:09

My pleasure.

Cliff 1:15:10

Nashville, Tennessee.

Seth Eisenberg 1:15:11

Thank you Nashville. Thank you.

Conclusion

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This is RTB signing off.